Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:05

Hello everybody, and welcome back . Today, my guest is Cat Sims. She's Instagram royalty, an author, and kind of an advocate for a lot of us out there who thought we were the only ones that were struggling. I found the Unmumsy Mum really relatable when the kids were tiny, and then I came across, and I like the name, it's Not So Smug Now, right? Yeah. Because I was so smug before I had children. Um, Now Kat has kindly agreed to come on and talk to me, um, I'm hoping to kind of chat about some common issues or challenges that we face, um, and how you cope with them. And also just how, what it's like being an influencer, you know, how, how exposed do you feel being out in the world like that?

Cat Sims: 0:57

Well, thank you very much for having me. Um, yeah, I was also really smug. I mean, that is, that I was the mum that was like, they're not going to have plastic toys. They're going to have organic food, no TV, no screens. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:11

till they're two or something.

Cat Sims: 1:13

going to co sleep. I'm going to, they're never going to have a dummy. And then obviously, like, they arrived and I think within like 48 hours, they had a dummy because on balance, it was like, Well, it was either like, give them a dummy or throw them out the window, and I was like, on balance, the dummy is less

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:26

option?

Cat Sims: 1:27

Um, and, you know, it's, and, I sort of want to go back and punch that previous me in the face, but then I also know it's really understandable, because there is no way of anybody fully comprehending what it is like to one day be pregnant, and the next day be in charge of a tiny human being. And the transition is Instant and swift and devastating in a lot of ways because it is so overwhelming. Um, so once, you know, I realized those smug things were things I had to let go of pretty quickly. Ha

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:09

So I've got, I've got three that are biologically mine and then I have a, she's adopted but not adopted because it's complicated, but yeah. Um, John's daughter. I have four kids, but three, three. I don't know why I have to over explain everything.

Cat Sims: 2:21

Three you hoofed out through your love tunnel or out the

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:24

no, actually, all through the stomach, I'm honeymoon fresh down there. Yeah, yeah,

Cat Sims: 2:29

I love that for you.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 2:30

Yeah, it's nice to have the shelf afterwards, right? Um, so, I was exactly the same. And then I had my second baby, and there was about two years between them. And, I discovered CB, because I think we finally upgraded and got a telly that had Sky. And, I was like, oh. I can put this on and the two year old will just be captivated and I can kind of feed and doze off on the sofa for a few moments. And to be honest, you know, all three of my older kids have a telly in their room and an Xbox and I've become the mother I never thought I would be. But it is, it's their pop culture as well. If you deny them it, you're denying them that common interest at school.

Cat Sims: 3:10

honestly, I really think that we all overthink this. And I understand why, like, I understand why because society and the patriarchy are literally going out of their way to make us all feel bad about it. But,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 3:20

Oh yeah.

Cat Sims: 3:20

but I honestly think we're overthinking it. Like, I, you know, we're gonna mess them up some way. Chances are it's not television that's gonna do it.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 3:30

Do you know what my counsellor once said to me, because obviously I'm, you know, one of my biggest fears is that my children have been permanently damaged by the, you know, sudden death of their dad. And she said to me, um, if you're worried that you're gonna fuck your children up, you already have, everybody has, like, everybody will, there'll be some memory in your child that you probably can't even remember. Like I can still remember my mum smacking me, she has no recollection of this.

Cat Sims: 3:55

Yeah. And also I think as, you know, I think as well there are times where I know I've behaved badly. Like when I was in active addiction and things like that, I had this rage and I would like suddenly just explode. And I know it scared the sh I don't know if I can swear. Can I swear?

Rosie Gill-Moss: 4:08

yeah, yeah, yeah, it's called, uh, I mean, my original podcast was called Widow to Sparky. Fine.

Cat Sims: 4:11

Great. Got it. Um, so it scared the shit out of me. And I know it scared the shit out of them. So there are things that I know will have traumatised them that I've messed up. But I'm willing to go back to them and say, I know I messed up on that and I'm really sorry and I know that this, I can see how this affects you in this way and I want you to know that I have to take responsibility for that and you don't have to do it. You know, it's like recognizing that. Nobody ever did. You're not going to get away with not traumatizing them in

Rosie Gill-Moss: 4:38

No, we all, it's even as simple as, you know, asking them to put their shoes on three times, and then screaming, put your fucking shoes on. And then beating yourself up for the rest of the day, thinking that you're the worst mother ever. And it is about losing this idea of perfection, and accepting that motherhood is flawed, and it's messy, and as long as your kids feel safe and loved. Which, most of the time, I do. Um, then that, that's really all you can hope for. But, you talked, you mentioned briefly there Kat about, um, your addiction. Now I'm in recovery as well. I've, yeah, I, I think we're on a similar timeline. Are you about two years?

Cat Sims: 5:15

Hehe.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 5:18

Yeah, I'm, I'm two years but not till March. So you're a little ahead of me. You, you, uh, you caught that trend quicker. How have you found that? Because you've also got ADHD. And the two are so intrinsically linked. You know, all, uh, my counsellors, uh, she works in a, uh, uh, addiction centre for part of her training. And she said it was something, I can't remember the figure, but it was something crazy like 90 percent crossover. So. I found personally for me, um, ADHD meds helped me a lot with the kind of impulsivity and the self destruct. Um, therapy, I, I exercise, you know, all the, all the things that old alcoholic me thought was complete bollocks, but actually does work. And I just, I know that you work out and stuff and how have you, how have you found it?

Cat Sims: 6:06

I mean, I've, I, I, it's been a Oh, what, how do I Do you know what? I think for me I got to a point of desperation that actually giving up alcohol was easy. And it wasn't that I wasn't an alcoholic. I am absolutely, 100 percent identify as an alcoholic. I'm very happy to use that word. Um, if I don't use that word to describe myself, then the alcoholic in my brain goes, Oh, well you're not really one of those, so you can probably have a

Rosie Gill-Moss: 6:31

That's interesting.

Cat Sims: 6:32

so I have to, I have to, I'm very comfortable with the word alcoholic. Um, so, it wasn't that I wasn't alcoholic. It was just that I got, you know, I didn't crash and burn in a way a lot of people did. I didn't crash a car, I didn't end up in jail, I didn't lose my kids. I mean, a lot of those are yets, because I definitely drove drunk, and I definitely did things like that, you know, but I never got caught. And so, when I came in, my desperation wasn't really from a place of having lost everything. It was from a place of deep, debilitating anxiety. I used to wake up every morning at 4am with, um, this panic attack that made me think I was going to drop dead. And I guess a moral, I guess an inner break, not a breakdown, but an inner kind of crash and burning, if you like, like a spiritual death. And I just knew that I wasn't, Being my be, I wasn't giving myself the chance to do what I wanted to do, and I was really resentful of not having achieved what I wanted to achieve. And I was really resentful of having to do lots of stuff for other people and never having time for me. Um, and then it was obviously everybody else's fault and I could, and I was in this just cycle of like, just kept me

Rosie Gill-Moss: 7:54

everybody else is doing it, right? Like, it's that, I think for our generation, the mummy wine culture has probably been one of the most damaging things, because it became absolutely normal to crack open a bottle of wine on a play date at 3. 30. And then,

Cat Sims: 8:08

always been the case. Like I, I do get a little bit frustrated sometimes with people like mummy wine culture is to blame. I think mums have always drank a lot. I mean, if you go back to the 1950s to see that they were like

Rosie Gill-Moss: 8:18

I suppose you're right. I think perhaps because my parents didn't, perhaps it feels different.

Cat Sims: 8:21

I think it, I think motherhood has always put a pressure and the mental load that comes with that has always put a pressure on women that we've struggled to manage because A, it's never been allowed to be identified as a problem. We've never been allowed to go, this is really hard, because we've always been made to think this is our natural calling. And therefore, if we complain about it, there's something fundamentally wrong with us as female women, as female humans, if you like. Um, and it's, so I think we've all, I think that pressure has always been there, and I think there's always been elements of substance abuse in a very functional way amongst mothers from the beginning of time, if I'm

Rosie Gill-Moss: 9:00

Well, you're right because it's Mother's Little Helper and, you know, that's her. valium And,

Cat Sims: 9:05

and and I also believe, and this is absolutely not scientific at all, but just through my own experience that there's a lot more functional addicts and functional alcoholics who are women than there are men. Most men who get into alcoholism, again, not scientific, so if I'm wrong, willing to be challenged. But from my experience and what I've seen, most men tend to have a very, a much more traditional. slide into alcoholism. You know, we know when men are alcoholics, you know, they're often sh well, they're also, they're not particularly functional a lot of the time. You know, they might get through the day, but they're probably, they're violent at home or they're angry or they're, you've lost, you know, whatever it is. Whereas there's a lot of very functioning female alcoh women alcoholics. And I think that that's because in my, again, nothing scientific, but I think as women, we are It's a survival instinct in us to fit in and to,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:00

Mm hmm.

Cat Sims: 10:03

stay safe because we have a predator. Like at the most basic level, you know, we, we have a predator, which is men. And so there is an element of us, I think, that feels the need to fit in and not. Draw attention to ourselves, which is why I think linking back to ADHD, we're so much more likely to mask ADHD and autism. And I think it's the same with addiction and alcoholism as well. You know, I think there's lots of ways that we find to fit in. Uh,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:36

my first drink at 14 and I got violently drunk. I mean, threw up on myself. Piss myself if I'm honest, you know. My parents made me do the, um, My dad and my brother were doing the London to Brighton the next day. So they made me sit in the minibus all the way there and all the way back. And I swear to God I didn't drink for about six months. But, I very quickly realised that alcohol gave me this social currency. And, um, the ability to, to fit in and to be. I now refer back to her as Party Rose. And from 14 till 40, I was Party Rose, I was the guaranteed person to be on the tables dancing. It was an entire identity that I had built around being a party girl. And even as a mother, I never lost it because I would seek out the mothers that also drank to kind of justify it. And when I stopped, I know this sounds kind of ridiculous, but it was almost like I was grieving for this lost this person because I was so wrapped up in the identity of being a boozy girl, you know, a booze hound kind of thing. And I didn't know who I was going to be when I stripped myself back and who my friends would be and would I be boring. And actually, I mean, I did a hundred days as my initial challenge. And in that time I did wedding, funeral, um, 50th birthday party. And actually the only thing that I haven't managed to do is dance. So I did my first Zumba class yesterday to try and break this barrier that I've got. And I'm hoping that's, because that's the only thing we, you know, the conversation still flows, we still have, and I don't really like going out in the evening, but I think that's my age. Um, but the friends I've built around me now, none of them are massive drinkers either, so I don't really feel I'm missing out anyway. Uh,

Cat Sims: 12:20

and, and funnily enough, my story was the same in terms of when I started drinking. I was about 13, so I was about the same age and got absolutely blackout drunk. Woke up in the morning with like vomit on the side of my bed. And the next morning was like a family tradition. We got up at 6 to walk up a hill. And I was like, well, I'm not going to do that because I'm not very well. And dad was like, no, you're not sick. You're hungover. You get up and you carry on. And that was the lesson I was taught at 13. If you're hungover, you get up and, you know, you still get on with what you have to do. It wasn't, you're 13, you shouldn't be drinking till blackout and puking on the side of the bed. That was never said to me. Um, but yes, there is definitely No, of course. Uh, yes. Yes. I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:06

dad's been sober 27 years. So, he was sober when I started drinking. And I think it must have been quite difficult. I suppose I hid a lot from them. You know, teenagers can be quite sneaky. But, um, it was almost quite a taboo thing in my house. Because my mum didn't drink because she couldn't. Because my dad was, um, a heavy drinker. And then he stopped. And, I mean I guess there was alcohol in the house, but it wasn't a very boozy household. And I know that my mum worried desperately for years, even prior to Ben dying, about, you know, the levels of drinking. But I just used to hide it. I'd stay at friends houses and moved out at 17.

Cat Sims: 13:46

Our house was, our family was, and still are, huge drinkers. And I wouldn't say all of them are alcoholics by any stretch, but there's definitely a few contenders in there. And, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:58

Yeah.

Cat Sims: 14:00

saw people not get drunk. Like, I never saw people just share, have a, have a glass of wine. In our family, people got together, we got pissed. It was fun from, as a kid looking into it. It probably wasn't if you were, you know, on the other side of it. But as somebody looking, it was a lot of fun. And so I just assumed that when you drank, you got drunk. And That never ever changed and like you it became social currency to me, but also it just allowed me to, to be, to be, it was an, like, people are like, it worked, you know, it

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:32

Social lubricant as

Cat Sims: 14:34

what it needed to do, it protected me, it protected the real me from my biggest fears of all life, which are like rejection and being humiliated.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:44

Same.

Cat Sims: 14:45

That's it. So, if I went into a social situation, those two things are high on the list of possibilities. You know, they might not like me, or I might do something stupid. So I would drink, and then I would lie because I wanted to be accepted. So they'd be like, you know, have you read this book, or have you listened to this album? I'd be like, yeah, totally, sure I have. And I haven't. And it's such a silly thing to lie about, but the thought of being other, or giving anybody a reason to be like, well she's a bit weird, I just couldn't bring myself to do it. And You know, at primary school, I remember, like, I'm working through a lot of this stuff because they say when you stop drinking, you get your feelings back, which is great, but

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:19

Oh

Cat Sims: 15:20

bad news, it's bad because you get your feelings back. And I was like, well, it's been two years and I don't really get the feelings thing, like, I've always been quite emotional and I feel like I'm quite emotionally intelligent, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, in the last few months, I've suddenly started having this very visceral, very physical trauma response to The, any possibility of somebody catching me out doing something wrong, or dis, or like. So,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:45

And do you think that's to do with how, how public your profile is now? And, I mean

Cat Sims: 15:50

it's not, it's nothing public. Public I'm fine with. It's people who are in my, like, inner circle, people who I really respect, people who I'm working with on a very per, like, people I know in real life. If they, you know, for example, a friend called, a friend messaged me, she said, I really need to talk to you about this. And I knew instantly. That she was, she didn't agree with something I was doing. And so, rather than sort of go, Oh, I'll call her and we'll have a chat about that. In my head I was like, well obviously we can't be friends anymore, I need a new friend, I should never speak to her again. Like, that's my easiest response. Um, and then when it did happen and I did call her, I just burst into tears. And I wasn't sad, I wasn't angry, and it was overwhelming. It was like a panic attack. And um, and it is that fear of being humiliated. It's not It's not the fear of doing something wrong. It's the fear of how people make me feel when I've done something wrong, which comes from like being at primary school, where it was, you know, if you're in the 80s and 90s, I just wrote an article about it on my sub stack actually, but if you're in school in the 80s and 90s, or at least from my experience, was that when I did something wrong, there was no, like, Well look, this is the consequence and how can we help you to make sure that this doesn't happen again. Bearing in mind I was also undiagnosed ADHD so I was losing everything and I wasn't in the right place at the right time ever and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:07

you a massive overachiever?

Cat Sims: 17:10

Uh, yes. Well, yes.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:11

I was at primary school.

Cat Sims: 17:13

I, I wanted to be. Like that was, I had this deep, deep, deep desire to achieve because my parents really responded to that. I had great parents and they're lovely but they weren't particularly emotionally And so I got a lot of attention from them when I did things well, whether that was like swim meets or grades or anything like that. So that stuff is really important to me. Um, but the ability to connect on a deeper level in relationships is something I still struggle with. You know, I am sort of attachment avoidant and I think that's largely to do with probably boarding school. Um, but I also think that's what makes. easy for me to do the job that I do. You know, I'm not too attached to anything I put out there. I'm not too attached to my own version of myself. I'm not too attached to anybody's opinion that comes back to me. So I think in some ways it really works in my favour, but on a personal level, it's tricky. Mmm.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 18:15

when I got sober, um, that my friendship group changed naturally and I stopped being invited out by certain people. But then I also found that other people really liked sober me and found me much. You know, when you do, and I really hate this term, but you know, get your authentic self. You are, you're not afraid of being caught out anymore because I think I lived my life without any real opinions. I just used to just absorb them from other people. Like you say, you know, Oh yeah, I've read that book. And you know, I would sort of parrot back things I'd heard other people say. And whereas now I feel like I'm, I know who I am. And for me, getting diagnosed was an enormous part of that process because it helps lessen so much of the shame. Um, and the shame of the things I did in active addiction, the things that, you know, Like you say, you know, driving the next day when you definitely shouldn't have done, and things like this. But,

Cat Sims: 19:10

I was driving that night. Like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:12

you know, It turns you into a monster, right? Yeah.

Cat Sims: 19:20

to understand that I didn't do the bad things because I was a bad person. I did the bad things because I was unwell. And like, for me, I was unwell in a variety. I was unwell because I was trying to manage an undiagnosed neurodivergency. I was unwell because of trauma. I was unwell because I had alcoholic, you know, it was all of these things and people are like, Oh, we don't really understand why addicts are addicts. It actually doesn't really matter. Like the fact is, is that for whatever reason, whether it's trauma, genetics, learned behavior, there are some of us that when we drink, we cannot stop. Like when we have one

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:54

It's the raisin and grape analogy, which I can't quite remember how it is. Some people are raisins, and they can't drink. Some people are grapes and they can. But I'm fairly certain I'm not doing that justice. Somebody explained it to me once.

Cat Sims: 20:07

It's, it's, it's, you know, somebody was like, it's an allergy. And I was like, I'm not buying into that, it's not an allergy. But then he was like, it doesn't, it's not about being medically correct. It's about using it as a term to help people understand. And I react differently to other people when I drink alcohol. There are people who can have a glass of wine. My body physically, I cannot do that. I mean, I can, I can do it. But it's like, but it's very unusual. No, I never saw the point. And my brain, and I could have done it, but I'm sat there jonesing for another. Like,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 20:43

Waiting for the waiter to come round

Cat Sims: 20:45

Yeah, or watching how much, yes, and ordering the next bottle before that one's finished. You know, just because you don't want to ever be without an empty, and I drank much. You know, so, I react differently. And, whatever the reason for that is. I am allergic to alcohol in that sense, in the same way that somebody who eats a Snickers bar and is allergic to nuts reacts differently to that Snickers bar. The only difference is, and this is the insanity of the illness, somebody who's allergic to nuts has a Snickers bar and nearly dies, goes, I am never, ever touching nuts again. And we all go, of course, why wouldn't you? She never does. People who are allergic to alcohol drink, nearly die, put themselves in dangerous situations, do it time and time again. Time and time again, we're like, oh nearly that wasn't great, but I'm gonna do it again. And that's the insanity

Rosie Gill-Moss: 21:35

And then you'll get yourself sober and people will still say to you, Well you can have one, can't you? And I just think, A, I don't want one because it's pointless. Um, if I'm having one, I'm having thirty. Um, and two, the implication that I will only be satisfactory to you if I've had an alcoholic drink is quite insulting. So, I've found people that do that. I've just separated myself from

Cat Sims: 22:00

Yeah, and I mean also it's like well you wouldn't say to somebody you had an allergy we can just have one

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:05

Yeah, just have one peanut, you'll be alright.

Cat Sims: 22:07

It's like no like the chances are the chances of me dying when I drink are significantly higher To somebody who is not an addict or an alcoholic. That is the, that is the simple fact.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:22

and it's the risk isn't it? My dad has, like I said, he's been sober a lot longer than me, and he just said it's just not worth the risk. You might be able to have one glass of wine or one beer and be fine, but you also might not. And I've been very, very lucky. I had my life blown apart nearly six years ago, and I've managed to rebuild. I have a new husband, a new husband. I have four beautiful children, I have a lovely home, and I just felt like this was taking from me all the joy. And I was gonna fuck it up. I was gonna do something that was gonna blow it apart. I don't know what it would have been, but I would have done something. And, much like you, I didn't really have a rock bottom. I, it was my Delayed 40th birthday celebrations. Woke up in a, in a dorchester. Um, and I was face down, fully clothed. My husband had paid for dinner for my friends. And, and I, and I hadn't eaten a thing. And I just thought, this is such a waste. You are wasting your life. Either paralytically drunk, or filled with self loathing. You know, the spiders. And it was just, I remember walking to the station, and I must have looked homeless. I just looked, I, basically, if I hadn't known I'd done it to myself, I'd have called an ambulance. I'm getting the train home and I just said to John, as I have done many, many times, I think I'm done. And he, you know, very supportive, went, yeah, you've got a call. And I said, no, no, I seriously, I'm done. Um, and then I did this for a hundred days and, yeah, I, I, I genuinely think it's the, the best thing I've ever done. I, I'm so much, I'm a bit, I'm not a perfect parent, but I'm also not a drunk parent.

Cat Sims: 23:54

I think as well, the reality is, you know, a lot of, I would have said well, the benefit of alcohol is that Like, it's really fun. And there were, listen, there were elements, there were times when it was a lot of fun, and there weren't any consequences, and that was great. But they were getting fewer and farther between, and, also, the fact is, now I look back on it and I go, well, I actually now know that I can have just as much fun without it. It took me a while, like, it wasn't easy for me to socialize at first, and there was a lot of anxiety, I had to do a lot of work on getting out there, and I had to really put systems in place to protect myself when I was, and, you know, now I'm fine. Now I can turn up, I can stay till midnight. Um, I'll dance, I'll do all of that stuff, and I'll drive home and listen to a podcast, and then I will be smug. Like, I don't like to be smug, but the only time I am smug is when I'm driving home from a night out listening to a podcast, and I know I can get up in the morning. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 24:45

and you don't sleep terribly well, it's just getting up in the morning and not feeling awful. Um, I mean some days I do just feel awful, but that's just

Cat Sims: 24:53

But it's all, but yeah, and it's, and, you know, going back to what you were saying about people that you've lost along the way in terms of friendships, you know, I, well, first of all, There was never any blowout. There was never anybody who went, We're not going to be friends anymore, you massive loser. Nobody did that. I mean, maybe they thought it, but they never said it to my face. Um, there were certainly people who I just drifted away from naturally.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 25:19

Drink buddies.

Cat Sims: 25:21

yeah, and like, when I thought about it, those were the people that I only ever got drunk with. Like, I would have called them really good friends. But we never got together and didn't drink. Um, and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 25:32

you what else, just to jump in there as well, is you have these really in depth conversations when you're drunk, but I never used to remember it, whereas now, when people tell me really kind of personal things, I do remember, and I think, I feel quite awful like the things people must have told me over the years, and I have absolutely no recollection of.

Cat Sims: 25:50

Well, but do you, I don't know if you've done this, but I've been out when everybody else has been really pissed and it's fine. But I've heard, been in that conversation and what I realize, nobody's listening.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:01

No.

Cat Sims: 26:02

Nobody's listening. Everybody is like, when can I speak? I've got an opinion on that. This is what I think. You're, it's, it's not. It's quite a toxic conversation to be a part of. And, um, what I've realized in sobriety, what I've learned, and I'm still learning, is, like, to shut my mouth and open my ears. Um, because in sobriety I can listen. And in sobriety I've learned I don't have to have an opinion on everything. And if I do have an opinion on something, I don't have to say it.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:37

Mm. Yeah.

Cat Sims: 26:38

And when I was drinking, it never would have occurred to me. Even if it, even if I was, you know, restrained, sober, it never would have, I wouldn't have had the skills to be that empathetic, to be, um, to listen. Because alcohol takes that away from you.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:56

And weirdly, you know, it used to make me tired. Like I can go out till, I mean it's not often, but I could go out or potentially stay up till midnight now. Um, whereas before, just alcohol would make me kind of sleepy and, you know, there is genuinely somewhere in existence a photograph of me. I'd gone out with my mum friends, uh, our eldest had just turned one, and we went out and there's a face, a photo of me somewhere in existence, face down in the Chinese. I mean, come on.

Cat Sims: 27:28

I mean, listen, two things there. Firstly, you're obviously the mother of a one year old, so slightly understandable. But also, you know, I have friends who do the same thing. I never fell asleep. I always wanted to keep going. I chased the buzz too hard. Like, for me, that

Rosie Gill-Moss: 27:41

my, this was my

Cat Sims: 27:42

was it. And then, blackout, for me, was a problem. So when I said I didn't come in because of a rock bottom, that's true, but it's not to say that I didn't have many, many rock bottoms that should have brought me in that didn't. Um, and so blackout was a problem, but the addict in my head would say, well, drinking's not the problem. Blacking out is the problem. That's when the bad things happen. So we need to figure out a way for you not to blackout, which is when I started using things like cocaine to, you know, and, and people are like, oh, are you, you know, are you an addict as well as an alcoholic? Not really. Not in terms of cocaine because I only ever used cocaine to facilitate more drinking. I only ever used it so that I wouldn't black out. And

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:22

And you could keep the party going.

Cat Sims: 28:23

and I could keep going. And people are like, yeah, but when people are on cocaine they don't drink anymore. I'm like, I drank.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:28

I drank more. It enabled me

Cat Sims: 28:30

7 o'clock in the morning. It did not take away the desire for me to drink. That was always the primary goal. Anything that took away the desire to drink, I didn't want to do

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:40

Same. Same. Anything that interrupted drinking. Um, and it's, it's, It's funny, I mean, I, looking back, and it was my actual birthday, so just before I stopped drinking, my parents came down and took us out for a meal, locally. And I can just remember, like, start having one drink, and then, just drinking, drinking, drinking. It's like a Monday. I'm with my parents. Why do I need to be pissed? But it becomes so, Integral to any socializing that I did, that if there wasn't going to be booze there, I wasn't interested.

Cat Sims: 29:13

I used to say things like, um, I don't trust people who don't drink. I used to say things like, I used to say, I'm not, I'll, any diet that doesn't let me drink wine I'm not interested

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:22

Yep. Or vodka if you're keto.

Cat Sims: 29:25

I couldn't, no I couldn't even do vodka. I was never a spirits girl. I think the ADHD in me meant I was never cocktails and spirits. That was always too many steps to make a

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:32

Uh, cocktails, too many steps, but spirits, I drank because, um, I was worried I'd get fat, basically. I mean, in the great things, the damage I was doing to myself, my worry was that wine

Cat Sims: 29:44

know. Well, that's the, and again, you know, talking about it always makes me laugh because I'd be like, oh, I don't drink cow's milk. Like cocaine's fine, but cow's milk is a step too far. Or

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:55

organic, but it's absolutely fine to drink Wetherspoon's wine.

Cat Sims: 29:58

Yeah. Oh, I can't believe you inject yourself with Botox. Well, I literally just saw you put a gram of coke up your nose. So I think, I think, you know, let's have a, let's step back a bit. This, you know, when I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:07

sat with a friend who was breastfeeding and doing cocaine, like I and to me it didn't,

Cat Sims: 30:12

I'm not judging because Because I've done terrible things, I've done terrible things, but that is the insanity of it. That person is not a bad person who did that. She, there is a problem, you know, because we come out of addiction and we are good people. In fact, I would go as far as to say that alcoholics in recovery are hands down the coolest and kindest people I've ever met.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 30:37

I would agree with

Cat Sims: 30:38

I have never met, and not, there are. People out there, you know, it's essentially we are fundamentally slightly unwell, so there is, I'm not saying it's across the board, but there is a willingness in us to be so much more accepting and tolerant and quiet, if I'm honest, than people not in recovery.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 31:04

I think it's actually quite similar to, um, uh, conversations I have with the widowed community. Where you make a choice, don't you? You realise that something is not doing you good anymore. That your life is, it's, it's taking from you far more than it's giving you. Some people just accept that that's what they're gonna do. Um, other people make a choice. And it's a big scary choice in a world that really does celebrate drinking. And you make a choice and you put the scaffolding in place. And it, there's been times Particularly, I'm fighting, um, kind of PMDD, perimenopause stuff at the moment. And there are times when I go into the, the, I call it the snake. And I, and I just think a bottle of wine would just numb this. But I also know the shame I would feel the next day. And also I don't want to have to go back to day one. I think that's, that's the benefit of counting, isn't it? Because you just don't want to go back to day

Cat Sims: 31:57

well, and two things. Firstly, I've never, there is not a problem in the world that drinks going to make better. Not one. And also, um, I've never met anybody, and I've met a lot of sober people, I've never met anybody who said, well I gave up booze and my life got worse.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:13

No, you're so right, and that's what I told myself all the way through those hundred days was, I can always go back to it.

Cat Sims: 32:19

that's it. And I have met, listen, that's not to say that life doesn't still get lifey. It does. Like shit things still happen. You know, people still die. Jobs still get lost. People get sick. That happens in sobriety. Being sober does not make your life rosy and clean and perfect. But what it does, you know, what it does make is my ability to deal with it and manage it is off the scale easy. And, you know, my worst day, my best day sober. No, hang on, how does it go? My worst day sober is still better than my best day drunk.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:57

Yeah, I see where you're going, yeah, yeah.

Cat Sims: 32:59

is, it's, life is,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 33:02

Infinitely better.

Cat Sims: 33:03

infinitely easier. That's what, and I would say it's infinitely less anxiety inducing. And, yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 33:12

used to cripple me and I'd, I'd, prior to Ben dying even, I'd been to AA meetings because I've, it has been problematic my whole life. It just exacerbated when he died., I knew I had a problem with alcohol. You know, I, I've known for quite some time. Um, but you can talk yourself into many things and I, I ventured into AA and one of the questions I didn't realize you're not supposed to ask questions, so immediately kind of felt massively uncomfortable. And I said, well, for me, the problem is I feel such immense shame from the drinking. The only thing that will make it feel better is drinking. And I realised that that was the cycle I'd got into was drink all weekend, feel like shit, Wednesday rolls round, oh it's midweek, let's crack open a bottle. And you feel, then you feel, excuse me, then you feel hungover, so what do you do? Well, you might as well open another bottle, you know? And before you know it, you're drinking four or five nights a week. And the moments of sobriety are hung over, and that's a half life, that's not a full life. I, I want to be able to taste the food, and feel the, oh my god, the breeze in my face. Ha ha

Cat Sims: 34:17

Listen, soon we're going to start using the word journey.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:19

ha.

Cat Sims: 34:20

and then we're, everything's gone

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:22

therapy bath? Ha ha ha ha

Cat Sims: 34:25

taken it there. That's it. Nice talking to you. See you later. Bye. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:29

meditating that I thought, oh god, this is it.

Cat Sims: 34:32

No, meditating I love. I'm struggling. There's a great app that I found that helps me. It's like five to eight minutes, which is

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:37

Um, I do, I use one called Rolling My Third Eye, which I love because it's slightly

Cat Sims: 34:41

that's such a great

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:42

Isn't it brilliant? And they do sort of really short ADHD friendly meditations. So what I do is because I don't want to be in the ice bath and I don't really want to meditate, I do both at the same time and it works really

Cat Sims: 34:53

Two birds, one stone.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:54

Exactly, exactly.

Cat Sims: 34:56

it. Um, but, yeah, it's, you know, recovery is, and you're right, it is about shame, and it's, it's, All sorts of shame. It's like present shame, which is I drank when I said I wasn't going to drink and now I feel hungover and I've been a dick to my kids and this that and the other and it's a lot of past shame, which is I don't know who I am. I haven't achieved what I wanted to achieve. I'm not fulfilling my potential and all of this stuff. And it's Brené Brown who said, and I live by this, you know, um, shame is guilt is I did a bad thing and shame is I am a bad thing. And it really resonates with me because guilt is really important. Like, we

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:35

You've got to acknowledge what that, what you did, right?

Cat Sims: 35:37

exactly. It's a signpost. That's what makes us, if we're feeling guilty, it's like, I did something bad, I did something wrong, I need to make it right. Good news, you can make it right. Like, you can go, you can own your shit, you can say, I'm really sorry I messed up. And, it doesn't matter what their response is, You've owned your part in it. You've kept your side of the street clean. You're good. Let go of it. Shame doesn't work like that. Shame is not helpful in any way, shape or form. But also it's, you know, it's pretty self indulgent. Like in the, if I'm going to be really savage about it, there is an element of us that's like, you know, we, we can choose to recognize What is our fault and what is our responsibility? Like, I used to feel lots and lots of shame about the fact that I would get blackout drunk and I was sexually assaulted, right? Lots of shame about that. It was my fault, it was my fault. No, it wasn't my fault. It was not my fault. I should be able to lie in the street naked, unconscious, and not expect a penis to be put inside me. The

Rosie Gill-Moss: 36:43

You'd think,

Cat Sims: 36:43

can't. But the fact is, I can't. Now, we can have lots of talks about that, and that is devastating. I also know now that I have to accept the world the way it is and not the way I want it to be. So yes, it would be great if that was the case, but that's not the case. And so I learned that it was not my fault that that happened to me, but it is now my responsibility to keep myself safe. And that's like, so sobriety for me is like locking my doors at night. You know, we all lock our doors at

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:10

to do.

Cat Sims: 37:11

Me too. We all lock. I used to sometimes not even shut it.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:14

that was, yeah, that was one of my low moments.

Cat Sims: 37:17

We all lock our doors at night because we know that there are bad people out there who, if we don't, will come in and take our stuff. We know that, and therefore we lock our doors. For me, sobriety is the same. I know that if I'm drunk, I'll probably end up in blackout and people, bad people will take advantage of me.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:35

And yeah, and you're right, and it doesn't even have to be as awful as a sexual assault. It's, you know, people taking advantage of the fact that you'll be buying the rounds, or, you know, everybody backs mine. Hearing you talk about sort of taking responsibility, um, it's, that really resonates because I say to my children a lot, don't say sorry, just stop doing it. You know, if you say, if I've, if it's the same thing, oh sorry, and I don't really want to hear sorry, I want to see a change in the behavior. So actually, I could say I was sorry till I was blue in the face to the people that I was hurting or the damage that I was doing to me. Um, but the only real way to take ownership and to make amends is to stop. And that's what we've done. And we've, it is brave and it is scary. But it's also incredibly freeing and liberating. And I don't know whether it's to do with hitting your forties. Just that kind of, well, this is who I am actually. And it's kind of take it or leave it. Um, Yeah,

Cat Sims: 38:36

when I was 40, just after my 40th birthday. I think it was a theme there. But, God, I wish I'd done it earlier. Like, honestly, you know, I know people who've got sober and then 19,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:47

know, it's quite, like, cool to be sober now, isn't it?

Cat Sims: 38:50

well, I also think I benefited from that, if I'm honest. You know, I really,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:54

We rode the wave, right?

Cat Sims: 38:55

rode a, you know, I rode in on the sober chick train. You know, I'm not gonna sit here and say that it was hard, as hard for me as it was for people two, three, four, five, six, ten years ago. Like, the stigma is a lot less now than it, than it ever has been. And I think that's continuing to break down. I think people are still very uncomfortable with the word alcoholic. That's fine, I get it. You know, part of me is like, I hope that me using it helps people to embrace it as well. Because There's no reason why it should have any more stigma than celiac, you know, or anything like that. So

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:29

I tend to say I'm in recovery. Um, I don't know why I don't say alcoholic, but um, I think perhaps because I felt that it gave you a name when you'd actually overcome something. But hearing you kind of reframe it, that's interesting. Because my dad will say, oh, he doesn't really need to anymore, but he would just say, oh, I'm in recovery. And I suppose I've just sort of copied that. Um,

Cat Sims: 39:56

I mean it doesn't matter. It's, you know, everybody, everybody's sobriety is different. There's a million ways to get sober and you have to do what works for you. And there is an element of, you know, I do have a public platform and so there is an element of me knowing that, you know, if I can use that word. Without shame in that platform, then it's, but like I said at the beginning for me, I need it. I need that word. I need to wake up every morning and go, Oh, just remember, you're a crazy alcoholic, so you need to call your Jets today.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:28

Yeah.

Cat Sims: 40:29

And if I don't say that, if I say, you've got a tricky relationship with alcohol, or you're a gray area drinker, I'll be like, okay, so let's head over to the white and I'll go and get A glass of Sauvignon Blanc. Like, if I'm only grey, I can drink occasionally. Or if I just have a problem with alcohol, then I can moderate. Do you know what? I probably could moderate. I probably could moderate, but let me tell you, I do not want to give up the brain space, the time and the energy to thinking about alcohol that much or that way. I'm not interested. I would rather just take it off the table and the biggest thing for sobriety well, two, sleep. I thought grown ups I thought you just grew up and there was stuff in your head, so you just woke up two or three times a night. That's apparently not the case. As soon as I got sober within seven days, I was sleeping through the night. That

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:13

Do you not have to get up for a wee?

Cat Sims: 41:14

Nope, not yet. Um, and the second thing is the time.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:19

Oh, yeah, the time.

Cat Sims: 41:20

The time. Not just because I used to spend it drinking, but like being hungover or being

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:27

slug day and pretend that it was fine.

Cat Sims: 41:29

Yes, all of that. Or even just the time I would spend thinking about how I could get a next drink. Because I never drank in the morning, but you better believe I was thinking about it. I was thinking about whether I had enough wine, where I could go to get some wine, or whether I could call somebody up and go out for lunch and maybe start drinking a bit earlier. Um, but only ever in a very acceptable way, because we were at lunch, and that's what girls

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:49

you're middle class and your children are turning up at school, clean and on time, so

Cat Sims: 41:55

So it's really normal. Um, and And the time that that took up, I, I had no idea how much of a gift getting that time back was going to be.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:09

But did you find at first how long the evenings were? Because I was really

Cat Sims: 42:13

to go to bed, I used to call my, friend and be like, it's like 8 o'clock, what am I doing? Should be like getting the bath go to bed.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:21

Yeah, you become really good friends with the bath. I

Cat Sims: 42:22

yeah, got in the bath loads. She was like, get in the bath, go to bed, that's it. And I was like, okay, just go to bed. And I was like, and actually, obviously, that really helped because then I was getting a lot of sleep. And I was like, I feel incredible! Um, but it's, it is just this, it is a, it is a, uh, adjustment. And there is a lot that you have to adjust in quite a short space of time. But also I really looked at it like, there are people who have a problem with the word recovery. I think it's really important that we call it recovery because in my head it made me go, I am recovering. Therefore, I need to be gentle on myself. I need to cut out a lot of social stuff. I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 43:08

Bottomless branches aren't great

Cat Sims: 43:10

Yeah. And I need to, if once I was like, I'm in recovery, I was like, I don't, I have to look after myself. I'm not well and I'm recovering from. 40 years of really treating my head and my heart badly and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 43:26

really sad,

Cat Sims: 43:27

and that recovery is really yeah but it's also so hopeful because it's there and you know recovery is for me it's gonna be lifelong you know I I am so grateful in some ways that I'm an alcoholic in fact in a lot of ways I'm so grateful because In sobriety, I am living a life I never thought possible. And that's not like, stuff and riches and all of that stuff. It's just that inner quiet, that peace. I wake up and I know I haven't pissed anybody off. I haven't upset anybody. I haven't lost something. I probably have

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:05

Well, I was going to say, let's not get carried

Cat Sims: 44:07

just had to fork out 525 for a new master key for the car because I lost that. I don't know how, I don't know

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:13

got one clicker for our gate between all of us.

Cat Sims: 44:15

I mean, honestly, so I'll still lose things, but now my husband doesn't get mad with me because now he's like, Well, what's left over is ADHD. Before, I just assumed it was because you were just pissed.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:24

Did your ADHD come to light when you got sober? Because mine did.

Cat Sims: 44:29

Yeah, so my therapist, uh, well, it had always been there.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 44:35

yeah, oh yes, it's just, it lays, you hide it, you, you

Cat Sims: 44:38

but it was, it was my therapist that was like, I'd be really interested, have you ever thought about being, um, assessed for ADHD? And I was like, no. And she sent me a link for like, symptoms, and I read them out to Jimmy without telling him. What it was and I said, does this sound like me? It's like, he's like, that is exactly what's fucking wrong with you. What is it? I was like, I was like, it's ADHD. He's like, well, that makes a lot of sense. So I was diagnosed and what I found was, uh, once I was diagnosed, I got worse.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 45:11

Right, this is a thing, isn't it? Because I've, I was diagnosed with ADHD. Similar situation actually, a friend was diagnosed. She said to me, I think you might have ADHD. I went, fuck off, thinking it was just for,

Cat Sims: 45:23

How rude. Naughty boys.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 45:25

son as well, right? So I'm, I'm, it's not like I'm completely Out of this area, but I just thought, no I'm not, I still pictured really little boys and, um, and anyway, so I was quite pissed off with this friend and then in therapy I said to my long suffering counsellor, Oh, you won't believe it, one of my friends said that she thought I might be ADHD, and she sort of went, I was going to be bringing this up with you actually, um, So I did go off, and obviously in a very ADHD fashion, immediately just get a private diagnosis, and you know, did it really quickly, which I'm very fortunate to be able to do, and I started taking medication. And I found that the medication kind of dialled down the ADHD, but what surfaced was this latent autism or Asperger's that I never in a million years thought I had. And so of course I then got diagnosed with that as well, because I like to collect acronyms. And I believe the term is ADHD because the crossover is like 80 90%. You know, if you've got one, you've got to sprinkle the other for sure. Um, And I do take medication for ADHD. Uh, it's problematic at times. I don't know whether you take meds, but it's, uh, the supply chain is, there's issues. But, it, yeah, so the sobriety allowed the ADHD to show, and the ADHD allowed the autism to show, but I kind of like knowing now, and for my son, actually, um, I mean, we've always been incredibly close. Uh, I nearly lost him at birth, so But, to know that we were both kind of the same has given him this lovely connection to me, which is really special. And, um, the whole household, it's kind of a fairly It's a nice I mean, my house is a nice, calm house, which it shouldn't be because it's got four kids in it, but It's a Nora Spicey house, you know, so I can say I'm, I've got, I'm learning to say to the kids, I'm getting overwhelmed, you need to just shut up. Instead of screaming, shut up at them. Because I didn't recognise what it was.

Cat Sims: 47:19

No, and I think when I, for me, it was more when I was diagnosed, I started to unmask. So a lot, when I was 26, 27, I was diagnosed with depression for the first time and my depression manifested in this like absolute dropping of my basket. Like I just, it was almost like a breakdown, a burnout. It was like I would literally physically collapse, the formula, I can't carry on. And so I would go on to antidepressants and then about 8 months to a year later I'd come off them, I'd be fine for a few years and then I'd crash again. And then when I was diagnosed with ADHD, the psychiatrist is looking through my history and he's like, look, I think, actually you haven't I don't think it's depression, I think what you've been struggling with is ADHD burnout, looking at the cycle, and so I'd been masking so tightly, you know, I would have severe time anxiety, I'd have to, I knew I was always late, so I would turn up three days early for things, you know, I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:11

Oh, I've turned up for flights early and, think days earlier. yeah,

Cat Sims: 48:17

because something wasn't in the right place, because if, because if it wasn't in the right place, I was going to lose it, but it, it was, and it was just, I was just so, like, you Unknowingly, just trying to cover all these ADHD defects which I had been made to feel made me into a useless human being.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:33

I was described as, um, uh, dippy by, by somebody not that, not that long ago. And I, and I thought, that's the, the mantra that's been in my head, you know, that kind of bloody hell Rosie, or fuck's sake Rosie, because I've lost something again, you know.

Cat Sims: 48:47

Scatterbrain. I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:48

earring down the floorboards, just the other day, you know. And I feel so, like, it's not that I don't value the stuff, it's not that I don't treasure the stuff. It's just, I'm And to say I'm incapable feels like you're surrendering. Because I am capable, but I have to accept my limitations. And

Cat Sims: 49:07

I am very uncapable in a lot of ways as well. And I think it is, for me I have to surrender to that. I have to go, the stuff I'm really fucking mad at. Like looking after keys and turning up to appointments. I will lock myself out of the house three times a week and I will forget. Like, you know, I'm okay with that.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:25

Do you know what I've got? PIN code.

Cat Sims: 49:27

Uh, I know, you see, I talked about this, but then Jimmy was like, uh, I don't know. Anyway, the point is, we've now got a lockbox. Um, for which I can never obviously remember the

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:36

The code? No!

Cat Sims: 49:37

can always, I always have to text Jimmy and go, what's the code for the box? Anyway, um, but the unmasking was really important. I remember Jimmy going, you are worse.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:45

Yeah,

Cat Sims: 49:45

And I am,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:46

I making this up?

Cat Sims: 49:47

yeah, but I am, but my anxiety is less.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:50

Yes. Because you're allowing

Cat Sims: 49:51

is much, much less and the diagnosis has not just allowed me to, like, stop being so hard on myself. But it's also given Jimmy and the kids a more understanding about why I am the way I am

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:08

An explanation.

Cat Sims: 50:09

You know, and it's not always an excuse, like, you know, I can veer into the territory of going, Oh, it's ADHD, Jimmy's like, mm, come on,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:16

No, that's just you being a bit shit.

Cat Sims: 50:18

Yeah, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:19

actually

Cat Sims: 50:19

but it is an explanation for a lot of things and that's been really empowering.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:26

I absolutely agree, and I think explanation not excuse is really clear as well. So one of the things that you talk about is kind of carrying all this stuff when you're a mother, right? And Did you create the term mental load or, or you,

Cat Sims: 50:41

no, I created the list.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:43

The list I, I, I think is wonderful and I, um, I do my lists in, when I'm, it's actually a sign I'm about to spiral, I'm about to burn out. And I will do this list in my notes and then I will print it and it will be nine pages long. And it's all the stuff that's in my head that needs to be done. And, John is very patient and he'll be like, do you really need to paint the wall in Tabby's room, like right now? Does that need to be on today's to do list? But it's just, the mental load, and it sounds a bit like I'm sort of blowing smoke up your backside here a bit, but understanding that the mental load was a real thing. And that I wasn't a shit mum because I didn't like aspects of motherhood. I love my children. I love them, I would, you know, as any mother would, I would work through, walk through burning fire for them. But what I do not like is the parent mails that pop up 97 times a day. And the pounds that I have to remember for four different schools, for four different wear silly socks days. And that, my brain is not designed for this at all.

Cat Sims: 51:43

over and over again, no brainers, like. You can love your children and not love the job of motherhood. And I think that's a really important distinction because if you are genuinely telling me that you really loved, loved spending time picking up socks that they've stuffed down things or dried apple cores from under pillows or like

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:04

Mm hmm. So, uh, bananas that have been in there a term.

Cat Sims: 52:07

you know. Or, like, answering 700 emails a day, or filling in the bloody lunch choices for your

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:14

Oh, we forgot

Cat Sims: 52:15

the next, for the next 45 days. You know, it's okay to get overwhelmed and say, I don't like that, I don't like it, it stresses me out. It, it is stressful.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:25

And it's much more stressful than it was when our parents had to

Cat Sims: 52:28

more stressful.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:29

just having your phone on you all the time so you see the email pop up rather than a letter coming home from school,

Cat Sims: 52:34

also, they didn't,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:35

that you have to do Yeah.

Cat Sims: 52:40

is like, there's quite a lot to be said for 80s parenting. Not all of it. Emotionally, really bad, generally. Emotionally, not great. But, actually the logistics of 80s parenting, this kind of, we can send them to anybody, like, yeah, can you have my kids? Like, you know, that kind of like, let's just get

Rosie Gill-Moss: 53:00

and just walk to school, and

Cat Sims: 53:03

like, obviously there's safety issues, but there were safety issues then as well. Like, let's be honest, there were, and it is, and it is very much, I think we are far more risk averse. And obviously when it comes to kids, we have to be risk averse, but I do think that we are sometimes risk averse to our own detriment. And there are, there are things that I think, you know, I live in a really shitty area, I'm not going to let my kids walk the dog round the park on their own. Because of the area. If we lived in a nicer area, absolutely. I would let them do it. You know, I make a decision, if I have to leave them for five minutes in the house to run to the shop to get some bread, I'll do that. But, you know, in the eight, we need to, I think, in the eighties it was two lakhs, now we're way too tight. We're holding onto this way too tightly. It needs to be some sort of middle ground because we are the ones suffering. And we're not asking for help. And I hate to say this, but there's lots of people that go, well, they should just know, the men. No, why? We only know because we learn that from

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:03

And it's all in here as well.

Cat Sims: 54:04

learnt behaviour from our mums. We, we, by osmosis, by modelling, wherever it was, we saw our mums. It is natural for girls to look to their mums to model their behaviour. And the boys look to their dads generally. And that's what they learnt. And so no, they didn't grow up learning this stuff. It's not their fault. It is now their responsibility to get on board with it. But it is also our responsibility to be prepared to teach a little bit. And to be open to letting go of some control. Because I don't know about you, but I'm a massive control freak.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:33

so much. And I've got a, I dunno how old you, you've got two girls. Do you have two girls? I, so I, my oldest is at secondary now. He's in year nine. And, um, the first time he went to get the bus, I mean, the horrors that were filling my mind of what might become him, um, as it happens, the first secondary school was quite shit. And I did move him. But that, that's a whole other story. But, you know, he goes off in the morning, headphones on, off to the, uh, where the mini bus picks him up and he's out in the world now. And I look at, I've got two in year six, and I'm thinking, Okay, one's in a specialist provision, so he will stay there. But the other one, you know, the, uh, secondary school that's down the road from us, she wants to go there, so she'll be walking down the road and back. And it's just nuts to think

Cat Sims: 55:14

Well, and also though, your husband, like your partner, the person you live with, you can't, like, stop micromanaging him because that is a lot of that mental load and yes it's going to take a while. Like I'm not, like I do get frustrated when women are like, yeah, but if I'm writing a list it's just another job for me to do. I'm like, well, you can't have it both ways, like you have to accept that there is going to be a period of adjustment where you are saying, I need this. This is what I need you to do. So when I wrote the mental load list, I was like, this is, uh, this is done now. Like, put it in front of your partner or whoever. It's not there to facilitate a passive aggressive, you know, here, see, this is what

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:52

This is what I do.

Cat Sims: 55:53

It's not that. It's very much a, a, a document that I created so that you could both go through it. Because the reality is, like you said before, we do need to look at it and go, well, that's probably not completely necessary. Um, and actually,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:05

that They don't think needs doing or hadn't thought about.

Cat Sims: 56:09

They don't

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:09

I have to say John is very good. I

Cat Sims: 56:11

And so's Jimmy. But only because we've had this conversation. And it's not always been easy. And it has been fraught. But, there is no You know, we can come at this with kindness and go, I'm gonna assume the person I married isn't actually a massive dick. And I'm going to assume that if I communicate myself properly, not wait until I get to the point where I'm slamming doors and going, Nobody helps me around here and I've

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:36

is me, this is me.

Cat Sims: 56:38

If I take time, this is again what the mental load list was, like download the mental load list and say, an organised time, when the kids are in bed, can we sit down and have a chat about this? So that you're not mad, you're not angry, but you're going, this is what's on my head.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:52

And

Cat Sims: 56:52

know, or a version of this.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:54

telling the children or requesting the children help. I just, I, I, I was getting mad at them for not helping. But I hadn't actually asked them for help.

Cat Sims: 57:02

Yeah, so that's another thing, we use the mental load list, so we use a smaller, I use a smaller version every weekend, and I put down a list of things that need doing that weekend. Often they're the same, like, empty the bins, whatever.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:12

Pick up the dog poo.

Cat Sims: 57:13

And I go, right, I've put my name, and I'll put my initials by the things I'm gonna do, which are still the biggest jobs, let's be clear, they're still, you know, but there's plenty of other shit that they can do, and I go, you write your initials by the

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:25

Yeah. It's so funny because I've just started doing something very similar with a blackboard in my kitchen. And um, it literally just says, you know, bring your laundry down at the moment. But I want to gradually, particularly because I have boys as well. I have two girls, two boys. And I don't want the girls to naturally fall into the role of tidying up or loading the dishwasher while the boys go off to their rooms and play Xbox. I want to raise them to be You know, men that participate in family life should they choose to have families, but and I Just I hadn't I don't think heard the term mental load before I came across it from your your Instagram page and it did And particularly as an ADHD, uh, we do hold so much in our heads and it's it's I mean, there's lots of different ways of describing I like the buzzy bees and

Cat Sims: 58:10

machine head.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:11

Yeah, and I just can't grab onto the thoughts, and I just find being able to write them down or list them. I do, um, occasionally go what I call, uh, Vanessa Feltz in The Big Brother House. I don't know, you're the right age to get the reference, you see. Some of the mums at school look at me like I'm mental. And it's where I just get, like, I've got chalk pens, and I just start writing on, like, the oven and the fridge, all the things that are in my head, and the kids are like, Whoa! Um, because I sometimes think they need to see what I've,

Cat Sims: 58:36

need to see, it's not like, this again, I think this goes back to this like, we do, we don't give our kids enough credit, actually.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:45

Um, they're much more capable.

Cat Sims: 58:47

They're so capable and they might not, they might not like doing it. I don't like doing it

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:51

No, I don't bloody like doing it. I certainly don't like doing it for six people.

Cat Sims: 58:54

yeah, I'm prepared to have that battle because it, it's really important that everybody realizes that I work really hard to keep this happening. You know, it's like a business. It's running a business

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:06

Yeah, it is. It's a full time

Cat Sims: 59:08

it's like running a business and you'd be fucking fired. That's what you say

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:11

And your husband works away quite a lot, doesn't he?

Cat Sims: 59:14

yeah, he does.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:15

Yeah, so Ben did, um, his business was based out in France and, um, I mean, he only really ever went maximum kind of a week at a time. It felt, felt a long time at the time. Not so, uh, not, it doesn't seem so long

Cat Sims: 59:27

so much now.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:28

No, um, and I Funnily enough, I used to get into this way of sort of, like, parenting. So first of all, I'd be really upset he was gone, then I'd get into, like, this couple of days where I was just nailing it. And then he'd come back, and I'd be like, no, no, no, no, this is how we do it. And it's almost like they come back in, and you've managed on your own. Um, and so that must be quite difficult when he comes back from tour.

Cat Sims: 59:47

it's a very, very tricky, I would say that's probably been our biggest challenge on an ongoing basis, is managing that transition from him being around to him going away to him coming back.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:02

Because you adjust, don't you? Yeah.

Cat Sims: 1:00:05

obviously having him around is brilliant, I love it. And when we're in that, when we're, like, when that's the default, brilliant. And then, the week up to him leaving is always tricky because everybody's on edge. And then he goes, and I'm like, okay, we're in it now. And then, in some ways it's easier because it's my way or the highway, I don't have to negotiate another grown up. You know, everybody's playing by the same rules, it's easy. And then he comes home and it all goes to shit again. And Recognizing that pattern was really important and just realizing that having him accept that he needed to be mindful of that really important and, um, and you do, you know, you do get used to it but transitions, whatever they look like, are hard.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:51

particularly if you are neurodivergent, transitions are hard. And that's what I'm learning to kind of, the self love, uh, goal is difficult. I think to love yourself is quite a big ask, especially if you come from a place of being, um, so down on yourself. Um, I, I come across as very confident, but I'm quite, I'm actually, I have quite low self esteem. So. I mean, I think aiming for acceptance is kind of, um, good enough sometimes, and, and by doing that, you grant yourself the same equity that you might a friend, or you might, my, my child, you know, I don't, I, I give Hector, you know, scheduled times of when we're going to be leaving the house, and, you know, regular reminders, and, so, I'm learning to do the same for myself. I've got the blackboard, you know, where I write, what time I have to leave the house for each thing, each day. Um, I have alarms going off constantly on my phone, but for now, that's, that's what needs to be done and I, um, to, to help manage. I mean, as I said, I take the A DH ADHD meds, but, um, I have been on Prozac for nearly 20 years. Um, I suffered horribly from bulimia as a teenager. Also, I suspect related to the A DHD. And I came off those because I thought I want to see what lies beneath. Um, it was messy. Um, and I recently made the decision, or fairly recently, to go back on them because I thought, at the moment, I'm in the eye of the storm. I have a young, my youngest is six, my oldest is thirteen. I still have to do soft play, uh, flip out, um, ninja warrior, all the things that are very overwhelming in a sensory way. And actually taking some sertraline helps the anxiety and the overwhelm. And I just thought, why am I making my life difficult? Why don't I take what's offered to me? Because I was very much, I'm not having the ADHD meds. I'm not, it's a bit like motherhood. I'm, I'm gonna, you know, white knock all this. Um, and I found I'd like to come off them, um, but I just think right now, I think you, the crutch that I used for so long is no longer serving me, so I will use something a little healthier.

Cat Sims: 1:02:59

think you have to give up what's gonna kill you first, you

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:01

exactly. It's Briony Gordon I

Cat Sims: 1:03:02

thing, yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:03

it? Yeah.

Cat Sims: 1:03:04

I mean it's, it's quite a well known phrase, um, but you give up what's gonna kill you first, and so it's, you know, I gave up booze, and then I've just managed to give up smoking,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:14

Oh, have you?

Cat Sims: 1:03:15

should probably give

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:16

Well done.

Cat Sims: 1:03:17

sugar, or at least

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:18

No, just give yourself a break. Life's

Cat Sims: 1:03:20

I, no, but I eat sugar like I used to drink wine.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:23

Well, I had no sweet tooth at all, at all, until I stopped drinking.

Cat Sims: 1:03:27

I will binge, like I'll binge it in a really, it does need to be sorted. Um, but the reality is, is, you know, I don't know why we have such a stigma against this, this kind of medication. Um, but it works. And if it were like, I, you know, it's I thought I could do without my search lead as well and I came off it because, no, despite not being able to find it anywhere on the internet that said, Sure, just stop at Cold Turkey, you'll be fine. I was like, I was like, I will be fine. Because that is the addict in me going, Well, I'm, I'm different to everybody else. And, uh, you know, there's a lot of addiction fuelled by ego. And, um, so I was like, anyway, I wasn't fine. And I crashed. And, uh, I'm now back on it. And like you, it's like, now's not the right time. First of all, I hate the winter. I hate the

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:04:14

Yeah, I

Cat Sims: 1:04:14

I'm really bad.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:04:16

we need to book our summer holiday in the winter and, like, why, why are we going away in the summer? It's stupid.

Cat Sims: 1:04:20

I really am bad in the winter, so I was like, you know, I'm just going to get back on them and stay on them until spring. And then, I'm going to talk to my doctor about it. Like a regular human being, and recognize that I am not in control of everything and I don't know best. And I'm going to hand it over to the professionals, because

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:04:34

Yeah, and surrendering. to the professionals is again, it's it's a loss of control. Um, and I've put my hands in my myself in the care of a psychiatrist who's managing the medication. And then I'm seeing a gynecologist because, um, my mood swings were just getting so awful. And, um, You know, perimenopause is another hot topic, right? So, I'm about three months into HRT and I have to say I am finding life much more manageable. Oh,

Cat Sims: 1:05:09

It's, you know, we, I think it's really something that we struggle with as women a lot, a lot of, you know, a lot of this is stuff that we're told we should be able to cope with.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:05:17

my mum! Even my mum was like, I didn't struggle, you'll be fine. I was like, Mum, you anaesthetic. I've not been able to give birth at all, so maybe we're

Cat Sims: 1:05:26

and also,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:05:26

the same.

Cat Sims: 1:05:28

you know, and also I don't think they're always very honest, you know, I think the previous generation, you know, haven't yet. leaned into the reality of what their situation was because they weren't, they weren't allowed to, you know, and, and we've been able to bust through that stigma and our kids will, we'll break through other stigmas that we're not able to do. And eventually, you know, we might make it into some sort of state of peace and then the world will explode because we've, you

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:05:53

Ruined it.

Cat Sims: 1:05:54

we're in debt, broken it. But the point is it's a very, It's a, it's a, I find myself sober in an incredible space for whatever reason because it's the meds or sobriety or the work I'm doing or therapy, but I'm very, very grateful that, you know, essentially the worst thing that happened to me is bringing the best version of my life into being. And that's,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:06:20

Oh, that's nice. I like that because that's really applicable to me as well and I use Ben as the worst, he wasn't the worst thing that

Cat Sims: 1:06:27

no, but what happened was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:06:29

happened to him and it forced me, because it pushed my drinking to a really kind of unmanageable level and it sort of forced me to go back and confront a lot of And actually, sobriety, I've had to regrieve because you don't grieve when you're drinking properly. So it's been, that's been a heavy load to carry this year. It's been, it's, that, that, it's not the sobriety that's been difficult, it's been the kind of going back and reliving things. But I, I, like you, it's given me a career. You know, it's, I'm sitting, I couldn't have sat and done this. You know, I record two, three times a week and I would have either got drunk beforehand or I'd have bottled it. Um. It's, who knows where it'll lead, and I'm only 40, and this is the thing, 40 used to feel so old, but, you know, health willing, we could have another, another girl again, couldn't we

Cat Sims: 1:07:22

than halfway through, you know. So, yeah, it's, it's an incredible gift and one that I am grateful for every day. Uh, and, you know, it's, it's, here's, we are the luckiest, that's what they say.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:07:37

I think you're so right, and I think, when you said you've never met anybody that regrets giving up drinking, and I thought that's so true, there is not a single person, it's like going to, doing some exercise, isn't it, you never regret doing it.

Cat Sims: 1:07:48

Yeah, well that's like sex. I always say, going to the gym is like sex. You never really feel like it, but you're always glad when you've done it.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:07:53

And also, the more you do it, the more you want to do it, right?

Cat Sims: 1:07:55

Yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:07:56

Yeah!

Cat Sims: 1:07:57

A hundred percent. Um, but, and that's the same with sobriety. It's like, you never really want to do it, but you're always glad when you've done it. And the more you do it, the more you're like, well, I'm not, not doing this ever again. So it's, it, and they're all good things for you. So I think it's, you know, it, yeah. I'm just glad I got there eventually. I do wish it had taken me a bit, I'd got there a bit quicker. But hell, hell, you know, it

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:18

We're there now, right?

Cat Sims: 1:08:19

We're there now, and that's what's important.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:08:21

can I just quickly ask you something that it was actually something Lulu wanted to ask you, and um, she used to be my co host back in the day, she's still my mate. Um, now, she said, how do you find, and I think we sort of touched on it at the beginning, about being so publicly exposed. Now, I googled you, obviously, just to do a little bit of research. Ish. Last minute. Um, and one of the first things that came up was Tattle. Now, I, I'm not a reader of Tattle. I'm aware of its presence. For anybody that doesn't know what it is, it's a particularly vitriolic website where people can say the most awful things about other human beings with no comeback. And I don't understand why it's allowed, why it exists, or why anybody would want to do it. Do you read it? No, And, you used to you

Cat Sims: 1:09:04

it. Uh, I mean, I used to read it when I had a smaller following. There was just a few things here and there and I was, and it was fine. As I've got bigger, it's become Much, the threads about me have become more popular, more populated. And there was, I think there was, at one point there was people on there who was like, they know my family, like, there's somebody in my inner circle, it's fine, like. And it used, and it did used to get, really get to me. And now, I can't, I'd say it's at least a year since I've looked. Um, in fact, when you mentioned it, I was like, oof, I haven't heard, or thought of that word in a long time. Um, I'm glad it's there. Because it keeps them off the streets, is how I look

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:09:45

gives them somewhere to pour their

Cat Sims: 1:09:46

used to be in my DMs, they used to be in the comments, they're not there anymore.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:09:50

Yeah.

Cat Sims: 1:09:51

and they can't be, because they can't come and say publicly, without the anonymity, on Instagram, what they're then going to go back and say on Tatl. So they're not interested, because they, they want to stay anonymous. So, um, so I'm glad it's there.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:10:09

Yeah, I hadn't Again, you see, you're making me reframe a lot of my thoughts because I just found it really repulsive and

Cat Sims: 1:10:17

It's only repulsive if you read it.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:10:19

Yeah, and, and I, this is why I ask, because I'm, John's my sort of, uh, Instagram firewall. And he says to me, if a unread, uh, uh, a message request comes in, and you open it, that's your fault. I, he said, I will get to them first, and just check that there's nothing horrible there. Because, although, you know, my Instagram following is pathetic, I, I need your advice on how to grow that. Um, it's, there's 50, 000 listeners out there. So. Somebody's not going to like me, right? And I think accepting that, that you Because there's this people pleaser that's in me. I can't bear the thought of anybody not liking me and that's

Cat Sims: 1:10:57

Listen, I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:10:58

around that being okay.

Cat Sims: 1:10:59

learned a long, long time ago that what other people think of me is absolutely none of my business. Like, it just isn't. And, uh, it, it, I'm really, I think the work I do means that I am very resilient in that way. And I've had to be. Like, I've really built up, um. muscle that's very strong in terms of knowing what is my business and is not my business and You know and that applies for what for the good stuff, too You know, there's a lot of people that are like, oh, well, you know, you can't take the bad stuff on you know You can't you know, well also then you can't really use the good stuff to validate yourself either like you just have to keep that boundary in place and it's not easy, but Um, it's got a lot easier as I've got, as I've got sort of more experience and more time on these, sort of, on these public platforms, but, you know, for me, the public, the public element of it is, it's very natural to me because I'm, I mean, essentially I'm a massive show off, but also I find it much easier to sit and talk about my deepest, darkest defects and secrets. to a big, empty, anonymous, massive Instagram space than I do if I was sitting down talking to one person about it. I mean, I'll still do that as well. But it's, it's significantly easier. And it, and it's not all selfless. Like, I do do it. The primary motivation is that if I share that stuff, then it makes other people feel like they're not the only one. Because one of the responses I get most often is messages that go, Oh my God, I thought I was the only one. Um, and so, I hope that if I get to share that, it either helps people feel better about it, or recognize it, or ask me how they can fix it, or how I fixed it, or whatever, you know, there is a real motivation there to really try and help, but also, it's really selfish as well, because it helps getting it out there, like with everything, really right sizes it, you know, and when

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:12:59

accountable as well

Cat Sims: 1:13:00

me accountable, and when people come back to me, I'm like, I'm not the only one. You know, so for me,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:13:08

Sorry, just talked over you.

Cat Sims: 1:13:09

don't worry, we're all ADHD, it's fine. Um, so for me, it's, it's a very natural place to be, uh, and I am a performer, you know, I am an egotist at the heart of it, which I try and use for the power of good most of the time.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:13:24

Yeah, I wish I'd found something like this sooner. I did my degree in journalism, but went into sort of PR jobs and government comms. And office jobs were not, in hindsight, were just not designed for me at all, whereas the more kind of broadcasting, creative stuff. But I just didn't have the self belief, or to be honest, the energy, because I was hungover.

Cat Sims: 1:13:45

Yeah, and to be honest, it was never really pointed out to me that I could do this for a living. I mean, to be fair, what I do for a living, it wasn't, didn't even exist as a job when I was deciding on it. But like, writing is my first love. Like, that's where I'd love to make my main income stream, through writing. Um, nobody ever said, everybody said, you're a brilliant writer. Everybody was like, you're really good at, you know, English was my strength and all of that stuff. I got that. But nobody said, why don't you think about being a writer? Everybody went, go and do an English Literature degree and, you know,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:16

Mine was going to PR. Because, you know, you've got social skills and you can write. Um, and my dad was a broadcaster. He was a TV, um, a reporter for my whole childhood. So he worked away a lot, he was abroad a lot. But, um, he was very successful and I'm very proud of him. Um, and I wonder if I was intimidated. You know, perhaps I thought, oh, Yeah, But who knows. But. We've covered a lot, haven't we?

Cat Sims: 1:14:41

We have covered an awful lot. I've just realised as well, you will have just caught me yawning twice. It's not

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:47

Oh, please

Cat Sims: 1:14:48

left the, I've left the heating on, and so now I've gone from being freezing To being

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:14:54

I look like, a giant marshmallow. I was so cold in this

Cat Sims: 1:14:56

about to be put into a central heating coma, so that's why I was

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:15:01

Well, I tell you what, how long have you got before your school run? I've got about half an hour. We can go and lay and stare into space for half an hour

Cat Sims: 1:15:08

gonna go have a

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:15:09

run. I had a hot bath just before I came in with you. 10 minutes because I was so cold.

Cat Sims: 1:15:13

it's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:15:14

image for you there, isn't there? Hehehehe

Cat Sims: 1:15:18

to get in.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:15:19

Oh wow, I'm early today. But thank you so much for coming on Kat And for anybody who wants to find out more about Kat She, you, it's not so smug now And that's your Instagram and your blog isn't it?

Cat Sims: 1:15:30

So, yeah, Instagram and TikTok, not so smug now, and then the website is not so smug now dot com, but also the biggest thing at the moment, which I'm really trying to launch is substack. We launched that this week. Um, and it's called you're never the only one on substack. Um, and if you, you can subscribe as a free subscriber and you get, uh, an issue every week.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:15:52

Yeah, John's actually on Substack He does some quite Brainy stuff that I don't understand. And he keeps telling me that I need to start doing it, but you know, baby steps. Hey,

Cat Sims: 1:16:01

Baby steps one thing at a time which is not something we are traditionally very

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:16:04

launching this podcast, running another one. I've got a six parter in the cat. Yeah. And it, anyway, let's go stare into space. Uh, lovely to meet you cats. Stay in touch. I'd like to love to speak to you again. Um, and I'm definitely going to pick your brains on how to grow social media. I think you do a course on that.

Cat Sims: 1:16:19

I did, I did do courses on that. Now I do like private consultations but we can work it out and it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:16:26

Thank you so much. And to all of my listeners, thank you for listening and I'll be back with you next week.