Rosie Gill-Moss: 0:05

Hello, and welcome back . You're here with me Rosie Gill-Moss and today's interview is with the founder of a company called Mindjam. Dan Clark is a father and he was a teacher, , and he specialised in music. During the pandemic, , he realised that there was a shortage, , a gap for some, for access to support for children, in particular neurodivergent children who were adversely affected by the pandemic. Weren’t we all right. So Dan has come on to talk to me and , I'm going to, you know, tell you before I actually get him on the microphone that he was nominated in 2021 for um, a BAFTA. for mentor of the year. So this guy is, he's doing a lot of good out there in the world. And, um, even just researching him, I found out things that I didn't know. I didn't know that gaming is really good for preventing and helping autistic burnout. Um, my autistic son games a lot and I have to say, you know, I'm, you know, is he gaming too much? What's he being exposed to? And actually I think if they're playing age appropriate games from what I've, just learned in the research I've done ahead of this interview. Perhaps we can all stop using it to stick to beat ourselves with. Wouldn't that be nice? Anyway, , the next voices you're going to hear will be me and Dan Clark, as I get to know him a bit better, get to find out what his, , his, his motives were for starting Mindjam, because I know that he has personal reasons for wanting to set it up as well. Um, I can't tell you what we talk about because I haven't recorded it yet. So you're going to have to sit back and listen. Enjoy. Hello, and welcome back You're here with me, that's Rosie. And joining me today, I've got Dan Clark, who is the founder of a gaming What do you call it? Is it like a therapy or a mentoring service? Yeah.

Dan Clark: 1:54

emotional support and mentoring.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:56

it's because it's not a formal thing. Sorry, I said we'd go off on tangents. I haven't even introduced you properly and we're off on one. It's called Mind Jam and it is primarily devised to support particularly neurodivergent children and children who might be suffering with trauma or anxiety and Dan set this up in lockdown so it's really supported children through the pandemic and I came across it when Hector was really struggling in year five and Traditional therapy, particularly for children who are neurodivergent, is quite difficult. I find it quite difficult to go and sit face to face, head on, eye contact, you know, already we've got an issue here, and talk about difficult things. And for children, and particularly neurodivergent children, that is, that's exacerbated. So I used to be, you know, my mum used to take me for drives and get me to talk to her, no escape, no eye contact. And I think this is almost like the modern, version of that in a way. It's, it's giving children a way that they can talk about their emotions whilst they are, I don't know if this is a natural term, but I like to call it distracted communicating. So they're doing something else.

Dan Clark: 3:04

yeah. Basically what it is, I mean, it's um, I'll tell you more about my history in a minute, but it's that, it's joining something that they absolutely love, so instantly, um, They don't have to talk about themselves. They can talk about Minecraft, Fortnite, whatever game it is. And you've got that connection. So it is that distraction that then you can form that trust and bond, um, that then, you know, they can hopefully talk about things or just have a trusted person that if anytimes they want to think about chatting about issues or themselves or the future, they've got somebody that they

Rosie Gill-Moss: 3:40

And that's it, isn't it? We've, you know, lots of children do have a, you know, I like to think I'm quite a supportive parent, and we've got, you know, we talk about our feelings a lot. But we all know that sometimes you, you don't necessarily want to talk to a parent or a teacher. It's having somebody that's that one step removed. And I've got to be honest with you, Dan. If you say to somebody, Oh, my son games with a, and sorry Dan, I'm going to say middle aged man, twice a week in his room. That's it. I've never met this guy. People will be like, oh, that sounds slightly suspicious, but actually it's so, I mean, they're obviously DBS cleared and very well trained, but also you get a transcript of the conversation if you want to read it, don't you? I mean, you know, we have a door open policy in our house anyway, but it's, it's just, For Hector, from, and I can only speak from our personal experience, but I said to you before we came on mic that it's no understatement to say it has changed his life. He started off doing half an hour a week, he now does two hours a week, and he, Mondays and Wednesdays are his favourite days of the week. He can't wait to come in from school and speak to Darren, and sometimes I think they just game. I don't think there's any, you know, groundbreaking revelations are happening, but it's just having that Kind of a friend, but a grown up friend, that you can learn how to And I know one of the things you talk about with gaming is it's learning to navigate real life situations, but in a virtual world. So it gives them experience.

Dan Clark: 5:03

yeah. There's so many things in gaming and so many benefits in there that a lot of people don't realize and we're always as parents beating ourselves up,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 5:10

Oh my

Dan Clark: 5:11

because through the media, uh, but, but yeah, sometimes it can just seem like gaming, but there's so much more going on. There's that trust and that bond there. Uh, and, and just having that shared time with somebody that's not family or, and somebody that doesn't. Isn't expecting anything from them. You know, we'd put no demands. It's completely child led, which is why it works very well with PDA and young people. Um, but then we plant seeds, you know, there's always lots actually going on in the background of

Rosie Gill-Moss: 5:40

like my therapy, when I think I'm talking about one thing and then she tells me that, No, no, we've been talking about something else. It's that, it's using little ways to get into their minds, I

Dan Clark: 5:49

Yeah. And the gaming world's brilliant. As I said, there's, there's situations and things you can set up in the gaming world or can happen. And you talked about how a character might feel or, or the social situation in games, such as Roblox and things that you can discuss. Uh, and you know, for a lot of these young people who've got very low self esteem, self confidence and social confidence, you know, to make them realize that they're super funny, uh, that they're validated, that they're unique and they're amazing, and also that they're not on their own. There's loads of people very similar with similar interests. It's, yeah, it's so key.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 6:22

You've actually made all the goosebumps go off my arm when you say that, because I obviously think that, you know, Hector is amazing and brilliant, but he is now in a specialist provision where he's really doing well. But in mainstream school, which so many neurodivergent children are, and, you know, that's not going to change any time soon, unfortunately, um, we, you say, what I saw was you would have, um, particularly boys, you'd have the boys that wanted to play football, you'd or the boys that wanted to do the gaming, but sometimes with, um, sort of as they get older, primary school, into secondary school, the, the, the language, the, um, the friendship fallouts, they can be very difficult for anybody to navigate. But again, I'm primarily talking about neurodivergent children because that's my experience. So I think, and again, I'm, I'm just kind of hypothesizing here that By playing these games with an adult, or somebody that's, you know, in a position of, um, when I say authority, I mean trust. Trust is what I mean. Um, they can learn how to navigate these games and what is and isn't appropriate behaviour in them as well.

Dan Clark: 7:26

yes, definitely. I mean, there's a lot of learned behavior from peers. And also, I think, again, going back to the negative, views of gaming that it isn't embraced by education or health that much, uh, whereas it should be, and we're, we're at the forefront of trying to push this to them, then they don't discuss in a way that young people would benefit from, uh, how, how they should be acting online, on, in games, and how good gaming is, but how not to be toxic, toxic behavior, none of that's discussed. So instead it's, it's gaming's bad for your gaming's evil, you shouldn't be doing that. Um, and, And so they're just alienated straight away. Yeah, you know the majority of young

Rosie Gill-Moss: 8:02

s Sorry, talking over you,

Dan Clark: 8:03

No, it's okay.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 8:04

be my neurodivergence, Sam. Um, yeah, it's really difficult on video call as well, isn't it? And I think the other thing is, you, again, we, as a parent, so my kids have, what I would say is probably far too much screen time. because I never wanted to be that mum, but lockdown in particular was an absolute killer. Um, my, my second husband, so it was very, very sick in lockdown as well. He was actually in hospital with COVID. So it was not a time for me to become an earth mother. So I had a very basic role with my eldest son, who's now 14. He's probably going to take his GCSEs, GCSEs year early. And he did his schoolwork that was set, and then he could game. Now, it hasn't impacted him socially, it hasn't impacted him emotionally, and it hasn't impacted up and only in the negative. It may have done for the positive, if you believe the research, which I've just read, I mean, wow. So, I think this fear that these children, they must be outdoors, they must be participating in sports. Yes, they do need to see daylight occasionally. I, um, my 14 year old broke up last week. Like, you do have to come outside just occasionally. But the idea that they're going to become, you know, morbidly obese, isolated weirdos because they play computer games. That's just not the case.

Dan Clark: 9:18

it's not true at all and it is it I think because gaming's It's still relatively new, it's in its infancy, and it hasn't matured so much in the last 15 years, really. Uh, but it's still viewed in this really archaic way that we're unsociable, sad hunchbacks, playing these games that are rotting our brains. It's, it's exactly how, fiction books were seen a hundred years ago, uh, where they were seen as war people, people's brains, whereas if your young person came home and just read four books in the evening, you'd be taking photos on

Rosie Gill-Moss: 9:48

Yeah.

Dan Clark: 9:49

one day, they'd be like, Oh my

Rosie Gill-Moss: 9:50

And was TV when we were kids, wasn't it? You'd go square eyed, it'll rot your brains. And now, of course, we see things like CBeebies and kids TV as really kind of benign and, oh, it's fine, my kid watches TV, but they don't game.

Dan Clark: 10:01

Yeah. Uh, yeah. game is, sorry.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:03

No, it was just something that popped into my head. The other question I did have with regards to that is, games like Fortnite. Now, they are aimed at children over 12. We all know that children much younger play. In fact, I had a call from Hector's school to ask me if I knew that he was playing Fortnite. I was like, I kept it off till he was 11. I thought I'd done quite well. Um, but there was, there was quite a lot of controversy around the kind of addictive nature of it. Particularly with young, younger children. So, um, Where do you, what's your view on that? Is it something, you know, that you would say perhaps they, it's something that they need to be a certain age to be playing or you need to kind of be quite strict on the time limits? I'm just

Dan Clark: 10:40

I think, I think it comes from understanding, and understanding you're a young person, and where they are in gaming, and maturity for that as well. Um, you know, Fortnite, um, obviously gets a lot of stick, like Roblox does as well, uh, and that's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 10:52

has always been banned in my house I have to say.

Dan Clark: 10:54

they are, yeah, it's because they're massive platforms, and, you know, yes, you, you, you can have wonderful experiences connecting with young people, or, uh, but also, As in real life, there's undesirables around and you need to be careful of that. Um, but yeah, I always think rather than being scared by the media and being like, nope, you can't do it if they really want to do it. You can't do it, you know, if you do it in a, in a way that you can do it with them to share the game, you're watching the game. You've got much more chance of them opening up to you. a situation might appear that they're like this is weird this is weird rather than they're terrified that you're going to ban them from the game because they've told you this thing so then they keep it a secret

Rosie Gill-Moss: 11:33

You that's, it's so true.

Dan Clark: 11:36

yeah i mean personally fortnight has changed a lot um this is another thing um so now it is it's got these ratings but and it's not just the battle royale shooting game now there's a lot it's It's hard to explain, but it's lots of minigames, lots and lots of different games. People can create their own games in Fortnite now, and they can be every style. Like, there's now Lego in Fortnite, where you can play on Lego worlds, and it's very much like Minecraft. Um, yeah, and it's lovely, and it's really nice, and you can have age ratings, so you're not, can't access the older age

Rosie Gill-Moss: 12:05

And it's all about a bit of parental control, isn't it? I mean, if you were to send your child off to the park like the good old days with, you know, a At lunch and not see them for 12 hours. That is seen as kind of quite wholesome and, and But if they were to play Fortnite, and actually you put the parental controls in, We all know kids can navigate around them. But I think what you're saying there about having, and again, it's communication, isn't it? Saying, okay, This is why I don't want you having this particular bit of Fortnite. Because these are the dangers instead of that, you know, kind of, you know, absolutely no, my way or the highway, which let's be honest, if you've got a PDA kid, that that's not going to work.

Dan Clark: 12:43

Yeah, it's very tricky and if their peers are playing it as well, then it's just like they don't understand and you know, so you can, you know, like I said, I'm not saying that you should allow them if you, if you feel that's wrong and you know you're, you're, but don't be as scared as you think. Even, and I know I'll say about Roblox as well, there's so many good, good experiences and things I hear and see when we're doing things and both these games are amazing because they lead on to creative of you can create your own worlds you can create your own games and then so so the almost the sort of education aspect of it is there

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:17

I have to say, I don't know why, but I've always quite liked Minecraft. Um, it always feels like a, like a bit like Lego, I suppose. And it, and it teaches them the basics of coding, doesn't it? But I must say my, um, my youngest daughter, so she's only six. So she doesn't have gaming at the moment. I'm not coughing because I'm lying. I'm just coughing. Honest. Uh, but she likes to watch them play Minecraft. So she will sit and they give her like a dummy control and she. I don't know how long we're going to get away with this, but for now it's quite sweet. But she had then gone into school, and they must, I think, is it Dungeons that's got the weapons?

Dan Clark: 13:54

oh we might have

Rosie Gill-Moss: 13:55

Yeah, so she'd gone to school, I'm just going to move my microphone, sorry, I think it's just a little bit off. And, um, she had, uh, Told us in year three that she had weapons, and of course I then get the walk of shame, you know, at the school where the teacher's walking towards you. And it wasn't her usual teacher who I think would have known that we don't have weapons in our house, but I know an age appropriate content, and I was like, oh my god, it was a bit of Minecraft, you know, some of the things these kids are exposed to. But it shows the stigma that's still attached to online gaming, because had she picked up a Dungeons Dragons book or something, also full of weapons, she would have known that we don't have weapons. Yeah.

Dan Clark: 14:35

The Hobbit or something like that, it's, you know, it's weapons fighting and, know, children are fascinated by that as well.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 14:42

And have been for all time, haven't they? They, you know, it's like, oh, I'm not going to let my boys have guns. They will find a twig and make it a gun.

Dan Clark: 14:49

Yeah, I mean, like I say, I'm not condoning this for everyone in the household, but I've got a young person and he loves War games, you know, he loves loves the call of duty war thunder. There's all the but he is fascinated by the history So the history of the tanks, he knows everything about world war one and world war two and you know These games have been so beneficial on his education He can tell me everything about you know, who built what tank when it was built. I mean,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:13

How very on brand as well.

Dan Clark: 15:15

Yeah, exactly.. So, um, yeah, so, so yeah, it is tricky. I know, navigating that and, but yeah, as you said about Minecraft, I love Minecraft. It is possibly my favorite game, I think, uh,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 15:27

And Hector sort of went off it because it wasn't cool at school, it was Fortnite and another one, I can't remember what the other one was. And I could tell that he did secretly like it, but he sort of didn't want to be teased and I thought again, that's like, The social, trying to fit into those social norms. And then when he started working with Darren, he's sort of been, you know, maybe we'll have a little go at Minecraft. And now I think it's one of their, one of their favourite games. And it's just reignited that interest. And Hector likes something called Yu Gi Oh cards. And poor Darren, I think he has to listen quite a lot about Yu Gi Oh cards. But, so you guys end up learning from the children as well.

Dan Clark: 16:04

we love it. I mean, that's it. We were a bunch of nerds anyway, so they could love all that sort of stuff. I mean, that's half part of all our mentors. So we can connect in that special way and we understand and we're, you know, not just listening politely. We're

Rosie Gill-Moss: 16:17

You're actually engaging.

Dan Clark: 16:18

Yeah. Uh,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 16:20

And actually, I just, I didn't even read out your thing. You've got a hundred mentors working for you or thereabouts. I know the exact figure won't be exactly that and supporting over 2000 young people, which is incredible because we've, I've totally gone off timeline of what I'd written my notes here. But so actually I'm going to take you back and just, I'm going to just ask you what you did before it and what prompted you to set up Mindjam if you don't mind.

Dan Clark: 16:41

Yeah, no problem at all. Yeah. So, so, um, before, before MindJob started, really MindJob was locked down. That's what started, but I'm a teacher. I've taught ICT and music. Um, and used to do a lot of one to one sessions, working with special education needs young people. I'm also a father to two neurodivergent young people as well. And, uh, through that, our main way that we connected is gaming.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:05

Yeah.

Dan Clark: 17:06

It's all, you know, where other things are difficult as a whole family. We can game together from the other days of playing Mario on the Wii U to Minecraft. And then, then now, you know, obviously if I'm more complex, my children are 17 and 14 now.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:19

So will they sit in their rooms and you'll sit in the living room and you're all gaming in the house

Dan Clark: 17:23

yeah, yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:24

My friend was saying her kids do that.

Dan Clark: 17:26

Yeah, I mean, we play board games and things as well. But we play, you know, even on Roblox, we play UNO, all together as a family, on Roblox. And it's, you know, it's all

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:35

I'm writing this down actually because I finally learned how to play Uno on holiday. a bit of PDA around rules. I don't like to learn rules for games.

Dan Clark: 17:43

Yeah, that's another thing about games, uh, rather than board games is a game video games have the rules already set in. So if you play Monopoly on a video, it's much

Rosie Gill-Moss: 17:51

You can't cheat.

Dan Clark: 17:52

because yeah, no one can cheat. You've got no arguments against the rules, but yeah. So, but, you know, through my own family and understanding autism and ADHD, um, PDA, um, but also in school. When there's only one to one sessions, because I've got a love of gaming, we'd get into these chats about gaming and their eyes would light up. They'd suddenly come alive and be so animated and chatting to me and then, in a way, it'd be quite heartbreaking that we'd go, Yeah, we'd better get back to ticking the boxes that we have to tick for school and things like that. So I then set up an after school club. Um, I was at various schools at that time and at each school we did an after school gaming club. Uh, where we could look into making games, but also it was just a shared experience of gaming. Uh, and again, it was amazing, really successful, but also just seeing how much benefit the young people were getting. And then, pandemic happened, so obviously everything like that's up, but I was still in contact with a few parents and they were like, the child's missing that time with you, I wondered whether you'd be able to just join them in a game and do that. And it was something like. This is something here. And I remember just, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 18:58

that real moment where you get the Yeah.

Dan Clark: 19:01

I always looked online and talked to my wife and said, I don't think anybody does this. Is this something? And, you know, obviously I had that weird imposter syndrome feeling, but,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:10

Yeah, me too, right?

Dan Clark: 19:11

yeah, yeah, well, started up and honestly, and talk with parents. And I think being a parent myself and, you Knowing the exact situation, my daughter hasn't been in school, my son managed to make it through, but it's been hard, um, you know, knowing the whole situation, how secondary school life especially is so difficult and I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:30

It was when we were kids, Dan, I think it's even now I

Dan Clark: 19:34

it's, it's not changed, that's the problem, it's not

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:37

They can get you in more places, that's the difference, isn't it?

Dan Clark: 19:40

a difficult one, but, but yeah, having that

Rosie Gill-Moss: 19:43

a podcast on this, Dan, actually. I did one on the situation in studying education, just dropping that in

Dan Clark: 19:48

Good segue into that one as well. Um, yeah, so it started this up and, um, and yeah, it's just snowballed to the point where I was really keen, knew it, knew it was something good. And just that thing where there's no demands, but we can look into things so they can feed off you and go. I've always wanted to. Mods Pokemon in it. Brilliant. Let's have a look together And we do it in that way rather than that hierarchy in there. Please sir. Can I do this

Rosie Gill-Moss: 20:14

it's like you're their friend. That's exactly what it's like. It's like Hector really does think of Darren as his friend. Hmm that's just really sweet. So just, so it was just you at first. So you, excuse me, so you, you've got your client base probably from, from former pupils or pupils at the,

Dan Clark: 20:30

we started off, but it's more from word of mouth through mainly, uh, parent groups, um, talk to talk about us, but very quickly, um, uh, Essex Council got in touch first and really love what was doing. See if I could work with their young people and that very quickly got to a stage where I could work, you know, tickle the boxes for them, the quality assurances, make sure we're, you know, high end, well checked company. And then that's, you know, It's still, still just me, and then, and then we started, I was like, this is too big for me. One, one thing I'd done before lockdown was running a music tuition agency. So I knew how to pull in other people. Um, you know, so, so then, uh, yeah, we started, started to expand it. It was like, I can't just do this myself. This is, I wait and this is growing. Uh, and it started with, you know, taking on about four or five mentors, but yeah, over the four years, Uh, first one was, uh, Leo, who's someone I used to teach with. So, it was, you know, great, and he was, uh, he was I messaged he was like, I've got this mad idea, mate, I don't know if you'd be interested, because

Rosie Gill-Moss: 21:35

best start with, I've got a bad idea.

Dan Clark: 21:38

we, we used to talk about gaming all the time, so I knew he had this love of gaming, um, yeah, and then we've just expanded, but, you know, the one thing, all our mentors must have worked professionally with young people, and especially, yes, SEN young people, uh, and then also have a love and passion for gaming, because you cannot you know, Fake that and the would see straight through it. Um, they're the two main things so all all of our mentors work with that, but now we've Such broad now that we offer a load of in house training as well, of course from safeguarding all the way through to game design and everything else

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:10

Because I guess actually sometimes, because your mentors are essentially in the child's home, might be something that they witness or overhear

Dan Clark: 22:19

hmm

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:21

so presumably you have a sort of system in place for that.

Dan Clark: 22:24

Yeah, we work exactly the same as as a school so, uh, you know, we've got a full time safeguarding lead called vicky and she's She's more trained than most of the people she talks to in L. A. to be honest. And um, you know, and, and so, you know, and that's nice for our mentors as well. Just to know that they, they've got someone

Rosie Gill-Moss: 22:41

Well, they need protection as well. This is the other thing I'm thinking is because, um, and we know that teachers are quite vulnerable, um, and particularly male teachers often. Um, you know, you often say nobody would want to be a male teacher in a girl's school these days. And I'm thinking in this situation, your mentors. They are making themselves vulnerable, which in turn is a good thing because it helps that, um, the young person open up. But they, to protect them from, um, I mean, potentially allegations or, you know, misinterpreted situations, is that why you transcript it? Because you use an AAI transcript, don't you?

Dan Clark: 23:16

Yeah, so we, so we get all that in. It's down to the mentor. It's the mentor's discretion whether they want to transcript or not. You know, we, we obviously have all our safety checks in and all our training in for that purpose. But that is down to each one. We don't, we don't video them, of course. Because a lot of the young people, if they knew that, would be like, No,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 23:34

with them. Yeah, we get transcript. I've never actually read it because I've never had cause for concern. And I get a little update from time to time. But it's, it's, I guess it's, the transparency of that almost is enough to put your mind at rest anyway. Because nobody's going to be that transparent if they've got anything to hide.

Dan Clark: 23:49

Exactly, exactly. And yeah, we're very careful on obviously on all that side of the thing. Our main thing is, you know, to make sure the young people are making the right choices. You know, we talk about obviously the benefits of gaming. We love gaming, but we also do promote healthy gaming safe gaming as well. And again, going back to the best thing is that understanding and being on the same wavelength that you're saying gaming is great, then you can discuss why having a break, You know, walking the dog, bouncing on the trampoline, eating right, sleeping right. It helps you be a better gamer. That's the best way to do it. So if, you know, if they're really wanting to be really good at this game or creative in whatever they're doing,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 24:26

They need sleep, food and sunshine.

Dan Clark: 24:28

we all need that. Uh, the best e sports players are their athletes. They exercise really well. Um, you know, and with the advent of VR gaming and Nintendo Switch, there's a lot of active games to do as well, which we try to

Rosie Gill-Moss: 24:42

My bedroom is, you know, obviously because I'm the parent, is the biggest in the house and, um, I have quite often walked into my room to find a boy waving their arms around with a VR headset on and completely unaware that I'm there of playing Star Wars. And they get quite sweaty actually, I think it probably is quite a good workout.

Dan Clark: 25:01

there's a, there's a game at the moment on there called guerrilla tag, and I've got a couple of mentees do it and it is the most exhausting thing I've ever played.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 25:10

Sorry Darren, I've just written it down.

Dan Clark: 25:12

Yeah, you'll have a heart attack. But honestly, you have to move around with your arms and in, yeah, and you've got to run around tagging people and yeah, it's brilliant, but yeah, all sorts of beats. Beat Saber is the biggest VR game and that's still.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 25:26

lightspeed say about.

Dan Clark: 25:27

Yeah, and that is a good workout. Yep.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 25:31

going around, you know, back and forth on subjects. But I'm thinking again about you talking about how it brought your family together, um, and how it's enabled you to kind of communicate and stay close when the children were going through difficult times. challenging points in their lives, which every child will. Um, and I'm, I'm not a gamer. I have no interest in it. And I feel a bit mean to Hector that I don't, but I will listen to him. And for me, because I'm not a gamer, Darren actually feels that. Because, you know, my husband was as a child, but, you know, we, we, we just don't. um, he's got that adult that he trusts that wants, that genuinely wants to come and play with him. Because, you know, I, I think he's aware that it's a resource that we pay for, but we never say to him, Oh, this costs such and such amount, you know, we don't use it as a, you know, because that would become a demand as well. And I want him to know that, and feel that he, that Darren is enjoying spending time with him, which I, I genuinely think they do enjoy

Dan Clark: 26:28

We, we generally do. I mean, obviously we, you know, the question, the fake friend sort of thing can come up, but we, we generally love what we do. I mean, how could we not? This is like the most rewarding, lovely job anyway. Uh, but we, we, we love our time with our young people and, you know, we want to get the best out of them as well and help them realize their potential.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 26:47

And you've, so if you start in lockdown, so what, 2020, so four, you've only been going four years and you've already grown to that extent. That's incredible. And you have, you were nominated for a BAFTA, so tell me a little bit about

Dan Clark: 26:59

Oh, yeah, this is lovely. This, again, was when I was on my own at the start. But, uh, yeah, BAFTA do this, uh, Young Game Designers Awards every year, which is a lovely thing, and I try and encourage my mentees to enter, and I know a lot of our mentors do. It's a fab, fab award where you can enter, but you don't have to design a game. You could also, uh, as in code one, you can also just design it as in paint on pen and paper. So it's really

Rosie Gill-Moss: 27:23

Okay, so very inclusive as well.

Dan Clark: 27:25

Yeah, but they had a mentor, mentor of the year category as well. And, uh, a lot of my parents and. Enter me into that, um, which is lovely. And yeah, I was a finalist for that, um, which was a great, great honor. And, uh, you know, don't even think that BAFTA will be on that side of it, but BAFTA

Rosie Gill-Moss: 27:42

the syndrome with that?

Dan Clark: 27:44

Yeah. Yeah. It was huge,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 27:46

You haven't got the wrong Dan Clark. Different spelling.

Dan Clark: 27:49

But it was so funny because from that start, We've now been, uh, got a great relationship with BAFTA and we work every year with them um, which is great, you know, obviously we help support and help them understand from the SEN and autistic and neurodivergent side of, of how to, we could enter our young people, um, and we, they get us involved every year in our work. Really like this year they had a big open day at the weekend, just being down now. And that was fantastic. We had parents schools there and we were doing a game concept workshop running

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:21

What was that with Lion Jam? I must have missed that.

Dan Clark: 28:24

Yeah, yeah. I put it, it was on the,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:26

It be in one of the 140, 000 unread emails I've got,

Dan Clark: 28:29

Yeah. Yeah. It

Rosie Gill-Moss: 28:30

never know.

Dan Clark: 28:31

Might be there. Um, but yeah, we get involved in that, so that's lovely and that's so great. But yeah, honestly, the. We've never had to advertise. It's all word of mouth. Our waiting list is huge, but also because, again, I think it comes from being the parent of, for my children, trying to get the best out of them. When you see something, you think, oh my god, this is perfect and it's going to help. You don't want to be waiting two years to access it, which we know has happened. So for me, it's that bit of a push me forward to make sure we can grow with our waiting list. So, our waiting list is about three months. Um, um, And so there's and we'll keep growing with that as much as we can safely, of course. Um, yeah, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:09

Well, I was going to also say I recommended you a friend. Um, I mean, it was tragically, this was, um, her husband took his own life. Um, and their son is neurodivergent and he unfortunately found him. So there was a lot of trauma for this little boy. And, um, I mentioned Mindjam and I think I emailed you guys and just explain what had happened. And actually he started very, very quickly. So, um, I think. you know, it isn't always going to be three months. There might be circumstances where

Dan Clark: 29:39

we will look it on a case by case basis. Definitely.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:43

And actually he's doing, he's really, really doing well also. And it's,

Dan Clark: 29:48

that's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 29:48

yeah, I, because my eldest son, He had therapy, just, you know, traditional. It was Zoom, but traditional as you can be now. And he responded really well to that. I have, uh, in person therapy. My stepdaughter has, um, online therapy. And, and then Hector, he was like, I, you know, we tried a couple of therapies, and it just, um, And actually, a lot of therapists, I mean I'm going back six years now, but weren't necessarily trained in neurodiversity, so he'd be up and down, I'm like, no, sit down, hit set, hit sit down. Whereas with this, um, you know, not once has he said, oh, I don't want to do it. In fact, like I said, we started off with half an hour a week, we're now at two hours, and I need, I do need to go back to Darren with a plan for the summer, because Hector won't want to miss it, he really won't. And I just think, what a, what a gift you are giving people, and what a, You, you, personally, you've given me a wonderful gift because you've, you've helped me give my son a safe environment where he can be authentically him, which is such a kind of icky thing to say, but

Dan Clark: 30:49

Oh, it's so fun. It's lovely to hear. You know, obviously this is exactly what we're here for. Um, and exactly what I recognize in what Mindjam is and why it's bigger than me. And I have to get this out to as many people. Um, yeah, we are that. We are that. We have middle

Rosie Gill-Moss: 31:06

you've

Dan Clark: 31:07

people that yeah, you know where we can, but we can help bridge that gap as well. So, so it could be bridging to education again if they're out of education could be helping them get that confidence to learn in a way that's right for them. It might be online. It might be back at the school who knows, but also bridging that gap in case they need. You know, extra therapies is something bigger, it might then build that confidence up that they could talk with the counsellor if they need to and that side, but we, we stay in that middle ground so that they trust us, that we're not trying to, we're not,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 31:38

we're not, you're not trying to therapize them, I

Dan Clark: 31:39

we're not tricking them, yeah, into, into certain things, but there is that therapeutic aspect to it anyway, and there is a huge therapeutic aspect to gaming, um, you know,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 31:49

I'm just thinking about the trust issue as well. So some, again, I have no clue because I don't know this, but there must be a lot of children that have had trauma and perhaps don't trust adults. And so we might find opening up to a therapist where you are kind of expected to go in, pretty quick, especially if you've been allocated six sessions, which most people are. Whereas if they were able to talk in a much more informal setting, build up trust with an adult, that in turn may enable them to open up in a more professional, therapeutic setting.

Dan Clark: 32:23

trust more people. One thing we are doing, which we have got, but we're expanding it, is we do have a counseling section to Mindjam as well. And we're looking into now offering that through Minecraft as well. So the counselor works in Minecraft. So if that is needed, then you know, the perfect transition for someone who isn't ready to open up will be with a Mindjam mentor, build that confidence and then bring in the counselor if that's needed. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 32:49

It's amazing.

Dan Clark: 32:51

it's because I get it, you don't wanna sit there and, you know, meet a stranger and go, right, here's all my problems. you know, are, am I weird? What's going on? you're not ready to, I'm not ready to talk about that with people.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 33:04

I'm three years into talk therapy and I don't think we've scratched the surface, if I'm honest.

Dan Clark: 33:08

yeah. Yeah. So it, it, you know, it makes sense that, talk about your favorite game, you know, it's just like other people would talk about sport or,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 33:16

Exactly, and I think that's the difference, isn't it? So, are we not a particularly sporty family? We've got, one of my daughters is quite dance based. So, I'm a dance mum, which I didn't actually see in my future, but here we go. And, um, and so, and I think, again, going back to what we talked about earlier, they, because the boys didn't really want to play team sports, so I wasn't, I mean, obviously I dragged them to swimming lessons and did all the, you the stuff you have to do. But I used to feel like I was in some way failing them. Um, and actually when I look back on my own childhood, now my brother is neurodivergent as well, and neither of us knew growing up. Because we didn't present in, you know, the very typically autistic way. And he, he gamed, he loved gaming, um, and, you know, obsessively collected, Bucky, do you remember Bucky O'Hare? I remember he was obsessed with those. for me, it was reading. I used to, you said about reading four books. Well, I'm that kid, like I would gone, I used to ask for boxes of books. So it's, It's just a different way of having a social interaction, of learning about the world, and I think as long as you are, you know, having a check and making sure they're not talking to some weirdo in Ohio or, you know, taking their clothes off.

Dan Clark: 34:25

Yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:26

my, god, there's so much to

Dan Clark: 34:29

it's important to say it in two ways. You know, yes, we've got the online socialness, which is not just gaming, is it? It's social media, it's Discord, it's every, it's everything. It's everything. But then you've got gaming, and you know, and, and gaming is, you know, they can have, find their peers, their friends, have a team, they can also learn dynamics of that, and there will be fallings out and things like that.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 34:51

fallings out are important and maybe it's better it happens in that setting because you can learn from it there before it happens in the real

Dan Clark: 34:59

For, for a neurodivergent person, it's, it's great. It presents a way that they can, they can, you know, learn these experiences without being forced into that super embarrassing face to face, you know, um, you know, especially that we don't understand how school can really, really scare someone. They're trying to fit in, they're masking, they're exhausting themselves, whereas they can be themselves. My daughter, perfect example, she's selective, situationally mute, uh, really struggles to talk to anybody, um, um, and wasn't in school, but When she, when she became 13, we got VR, we got, uh, and there's a app on there called VR Chat, and she could be a, a character she loves from a game called Undertale, and meet other people that were characters from Undertale, and was, you know, chatting with, obviously I was around at

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:46

her people.

Dan Clark: 35:47

and she could talk, and she learned this confidence that she got there, and she found her people, and that got, got us to be able to, now we, she's in college, uh, doing games at all, and she found her people,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 35:59

dad then.

Dan Clark: 36:01

Oh yeah. No, it's amazing. Yeah. Ama amazing thing. Uh, but, you know, we, we bypass secondary school and most of the primary school

Rosie Gill-Moss: 36:07

So what did you do? Did you use an online school plan? I ask this because year five was a really difficult year for Hector. And, um, the school, you know, he was in a special resource, special resource, special resource. SSR, special resource, oh my god, I talk for a living Dan. Special resource provision. Um, where, and they'd been really great up until year five when the kind of academic pressure ramps up, and it was, the conversation was, this is not verbatim, they, and I don't want to sound like I'm slowing you off the school, but they, it was emotional or academic. Like he, we can't manage both, so we decided that we were going to pull him out for year six. And we were going to use, I think we were going to use King's Interhigh because I, I knew of it and I knew people that had used it, and we were going to use Um, and I was, well, hopefully be able to utilize Darren a bit more to, and we were going to get Hector some private therapy and try and get his emotional regulation to a point where he perhaps could go to an autism school, which, because at the time they were saying they wouldn't take him. And as a result of this, I ended up getting quite cross with the local school. I did a piece of the paper and the head teacher of a specialist provision contacted me through the paper. And. We fought quite hard because it's a high fund school, because it's an independent school, but it has been worth the battle and he started at the beginning of year six, he will depending on funding, which is up, you know, who

Dan Clark: 37:30

yep.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 37:31

but the difference for him of being seen, of being seen, we can see that you're not, you're, this is not the right place for you. We can see that you're struggling. What we're not going to do is drag you in, have three teachers pull you off and force you to go into somewhere where it's going to erode everything that is wonderful about you. And I think this, this, Like we say, schools still, and you're a former teacher, you know this, they still teach in such a Victorian style, you know, sit down, look at the board, listen to the teacher, and it, it, even with all the knowledge that we have, so many children are just not thriving, um, and I was prepared to take Hector out, and it would have been a massive challenge, I don't know whether we, me and Hector would still be as close as we are now, but it's what, it, It could also have been the making of him. And I'm fascinated by people that do decide to educate at home because, you know, you, you do associate it with, um, you know, hemp knitting and, and, but actually it's, it's not anymore. Is it?

Dan Clark: 38:26

Not, not at all. And, you know, we did it again for necessity, to be honest with you. Now, if there'd been a lovely school for, for a daughter, um, then that would be in her knees and we'd have been happy for it, but it wasn't there. And she was getting more and more traumatized. Um, and she's got trauma now from it, from teachers that, you know, think she's a cry baby or, you know,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 38:48

no

Dan Clark: 38:48

of, you know, absolutely awful things where she's. Completely masking. They don't understand autism. You know, we live in Lincoln and, and yeah, some of the primary schools here quite, yeah, they're very old fashioned. Let's just say that the training's not there. Um, so, so the journey to homeschool was, was, we just had to do it and we weren't, you know, I mean, it's funny now because now I'm involved with MindGen, of course, we learn so much more about AHCPs and the Otis packages and we help people with those things as well.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:18

Do you, I'm just going to write that down because um, EOTUS is something that people just don't know about. So for anybody who doesn't know, it's educated other than at school. And if, just answer me this Dan, because I don't, I keep meaning to find this out. Do you have to have an EHCP to access EOTUS?

Dan Clark: 39:35

I believe so.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 39:37

think you do as well. So, it doesn't help, unfortunately, those people who are unable to access an EHCP, but it does mean that you are legally allowed to request your child's funding and educate them somewhere other than at school. It's complicated, and if you offer a service that helps people, that will be massively,

Dan Clark: 39:53

we've, yeah, part of our, I think we've got Jess who's our CEN support and she's amazing. She knows all the, she's fully trained in even, she can, she's just finishing training now that will mean that she can write your eHCP. Uh, the only problem is, is it's, obviously, it's a free service we offer to all our, our mentors, but obviously, That's very busy. So, uh, so we're looking

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:17

sending your review up. I'll be giving you

Dan Clark: 40:20

Yeah, uh, but you know, the lovely thing is Mindjam can be included in EHCPs and which is fantastic. That's another big thing. It's, you know, if you struggle to fund yourself and your young person does have an EHCP, then great. But I know there's lots of people that Same situation as that we weren't even really made aware by our schools or anything. We just, they just let us take them out, you know, say, okay, you want to go by not try and work and go, maybe we need extra help and care. You know,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 40:47

Because with an EOTUS you can, you can get access to tutors and support. And, um, we were going to use it to pay for, um, we have a really lovely babysitter who's on the color cusp of retiring. And she's a TA with Send Children and we thought, we were sort of speaking to her about, you know, Although he would have been educated online, we felt that somebody being there as backup, you know, just particularly as he started, but, you know, you could access the money and help fund it because it costs a lot less to home to homeschool than it does to have them in a school.

Dan Clark: 41:18

Well, if this is the thing as well, they're paying thousands to send them to a school that they're never going to thrive at because they have to get in a taxi for an hour to go to the school. I mean, it's,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 41:28

And actually with Hector's school, when we were going, so we got him in for year 6, then it went back to the panel for year 7, um, which we weren't expecting, and then they said, and I called the, my kind of contact, the person I've pestered the most, at KCC, and um, and they were talking about, and they said, oh, are you replying for transport? And I said, no, it's 10 minutes up the road, we drive him. Um, and she went, oh. Oh, that, that helps because that took 30, 000 off his budget. I mean, we've gone on to a completely different topic, but, but the way the waste in the system and

Dan Clark: 42:00

Yeah,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:01

but on the subject of costs, because people will want to know what does your, what does a session cost?

Dan Clark: 42:07

So, yeah, we start with, you can have half an hour sessions, but most young people go to an hour, but we do, you know, for ones who are maybe feeling very anxious about starting, half an hour does help to, and then they quit very quickly and they're like, this is fun, no, I

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:19

we'd do it every day if we had the cash.

Dan Clark: 42:22

but the basic cost is, it's 48 including VAT, uh, per hour, uh, and that's for self funded, and for funded ones we charge a bit more, because it's, A heck of a lot of things involved in it, but that's obviously goes to the council, but that's a What 60 pounds include a vt 50, but they get the vt back. So we wanted it to

Rosie Gill-Moss: 42:43

every week, and I've always had a bit of an issue, because I, no, I'm going to give you a bit better. I'm also, um, uh, in recovery, so I drank a lot for a long, uh, for a long time, particularly after my husband Hector's dad died. And, um, I always was like, uh, yeah, I can't afford counselling, I can't afford counselling. I, I definitely was spending more than 60 a week on booze. I just think, with these things, if you can. You should. And if you can't, ask for help, because often there are places and schools that will help you or people that will help you. And you could even do it once every other week, couldn't you? You know, there are different funding options available. Um, I will.

Dan Clark: 43:22

we can help and yeah, if you are connected with the school, but especially if you're a young person isn't getting into that school, then speak with the school and pass them through to us. Um, because a lot of the times the schools will fund it. This is, you know, the lovely situation we've got out. We're approved provision for most of the local authorities around the country now. Um, it's a lot of work because they, they all run in a different way, which is, Crazy, uh, why there isn't a central system for proofreaders, I don't know, but, you know,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 43:50

there's, there's many crazy systems.

Dan Clark: 43:53

Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 43:54

But I, I, so Hector, I received DLA for Hector, which is Disability Living Allowance. It is a non means tested pot of money, which we claim partly because I needed it at the time, and partly because it puts them on the disability register. So they, Hector is registered as disabled. He's, he's not, in terms of. physical disability, he's able bodied, but it's, um, it's quite, if you are, if you've got a child who has got a diagnosis, it's quite, um, a useful piece of paper to have. So for me, that money is kind of ring fenced, so I use that to pay for mind jam. I use it for things like he, um, I bought him a new water bottle, um, and he dropped it on the first day. Now, for any child that's going to cause upset, for heck, his whole day was ruined, and it enables me to just say, I'll buy you a new one. Without having to buy three others, because the other kids are like, Oh, I want one as well. You, you know, it grants him a bit of equity. Um, so,

Dan Clark: 44:49

important, DLA. We were saying, and that's how we managed to support our children when they're struggling through school. But yeah, I don't know if you heard the saying, but they'll normally always refuse it first time and then you write

Rosie Gill-Moss: 45:04

what, what bothers me, Dan, if I'm honest with you, is the fact that I have to refill it in every two years. Because until they've found a cure for autism, Hector's not going to get better, and better. And also the fact that it's treated, know, it is a condition. It's not something you recover from. Your brain is different.

Dan Clark: 45:20

it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because I don't even see it as a disability in that way, but it's a social thing, you know, because of neurotypical. But do, you know, the fact is, is life is harder for somebody who's neurodivergent and working is going to be harder and having DLA then learns on, leads on to PIP, Personal Independent Payments, and it will help support them so they don't to do a full time job, you know, uh, you know,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 45:46

Well, I, and I was read, because I was reading some figures, because my, my, I'm sure my brother won't mind me saying this. If he does, I'll let it out. Sorry, Joe. Um, but he, he's a, he's 37 and he struggles with work. He finds, um, you know, he's a very bright man. He's a lovely, caring man. He actually works for a company. And, um, I'm going to, uh, I might as well ask him now. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get, ask him to get in touch with you because I think he would be so perfect for Mindjam, actually. In case he also loves gaming. But, um, he, you know, he, I sent him, I was reading a book called Your Child Is Not Broken, which has got some really lovely, One of which is, um, again, tangent, sorry, Dan, but my youngest child has just been diagnosed. Now she does not present as autistic at all. And you, in terms of looking or seeing me, you wouldn't know, but I could tell. And I this, and it said, why would you label a child? And the answer is because it's a care instruction. How can you know how to care for somebody if you don't know who they are? Um, And I've completely forgotten what I was going to say before that. Ah, yes, it was about, um, uh, unemployment rates, and also, rather more worryingly, is suicide rates in neurodivergent adults, particularly who weren't diagnosed. And so much of that is because the expectation on a neurotypical working day does not work for our brains.

Dan Clark: 47:05

Ye

Rosie Gill-Moss: 47:05

Masking, you know, not having anybody that you can be, and again, I'm going to say I apologize, your authentic self with, and by giving young people a space where they can do all of this, I just think the outcomes that you, I mean, you must be seeing, are you seeing, have you got sort of real success stories that you can share? You don't name anymore.

Dan Clark: 47:23

yeah, no, it's amazing from, uh, from one's been able to access back into education. It's right for them, um, um, to, to want to become mind your mentors, of course, and pay it

Rosie Gill-Moss: 47:34

wanting to do that.

Dan Clark: 47:35

as well. Uh, it's endless, the, you know, the amount of good vibes that we have, we obviously send testimonials and, and things all the time. Um, but yeah, I, it's just so good. One young person I, I've worked with personally for the, for a few years, uh, went from not accessing anything to now being fully at college, uh, doing game design, absolutely loving it, but also having a group of friends that they meet with at the weekend. They got real, you know, the, the sort of the way they've blossomed is amazing and, you know, to know that, you know, I was at ground in. thing on that and they still want me around now of course, you know, it's like, you know, it's still nice to have that and to chat about what they're doing, um, which is amazing, but it's interesting what you said about, uh, mentors, as it says, we have many mentors, obviously, uh, neurodivergent themselves, um, and that's another great thing because we match young people with the perfect mentor for them and to have

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:31

while I was reading the Sorry, I But I was reading through all the qualifications and what they do and they share pictures of their cats and stuff. It's so cool.

Dan Clark: 48:39

Yeah, pets and gaming. I mean, there's nothing better than that, is there? But yeah, we've got psychologists.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:44

got the dog next to me here.

Dan Clark: 48:45

we've got a lot of ex teachers, obviously, who are broken by the system see the system And come

Rosie Gill-Moss: 48:50

that people are leaving education and coming to work for you full time?

Dan Clark: 48:54

Yeah, um, yeah, definitely. Um, it's, but yeah, we, we love our team, but we also know that the way we work fits, fits a neurodivergence lifestyle. And we can promote that to young people. That's what I love about the gaming industry itself, actually, and anyone that's got an interest in a career in that, it's really accessible. You, again, you can work from home if you want to, you can work the hours that are right to you. Um, you know, there's, there's a lot of, Understanding that, which there aren't in other places.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 49:23

No, and actually I always thought there was something wrong with me because I was able to get, I've got, you know, I managed to get a degree. I wrote my dissertation, obviously, I wrote my dissertation the night before, all the way through the night, um, and I was always very good at getting jobs and I've done some quite interesting jobs. I've worked as, you know, ministerial advisor, you know, I've done quite cool stuff. But I've never got many further. I've always got stuck or I've started, you know, calling in sick with hangovers, or I've got bored and I've gone off to do something else. And then I discovered this, which, you know, I, much like you, the massive imposter syndrome, realized there was a gap for somebody that was talking about being widowed initially, um, in a sort of fairly blunt way and it just snowballed, um, and now I'm doing something I love. But like you, I do it when I, when it fits around me, I turn down things I don't want to do. Um, it started to become a demand. I was doing two a week and it became quite stressful, right? I'm only doing one every other week now. And yes, you know, financial security allows me to do that, but it's also the knowledge that there are careers and jobs out there where you don't have to go into an office and sit at a desk all day.

Dan Clark: 50:30

No, definitely. It's, I mean, obviously the pandemic helped It's weird. There's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:35

One plus.

Dan Clark: 50:36

good things that came out such a bad thing. And I understand, but I have heard no more, more workplaces are now forcing people back, back into the office. And it's sort of lack of trust yet. Yeah. Actually, they're getting less work done because people are commuting and they're not as happy.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 50:50

And who's at their after they've just had their head in someone's armpit on the tube hour? No one.

Dan Clark: 50:55

Oh, but the most of the young people we work with are budding entrepreneurs. Anyway, they'll be working for themselves and we champion that. I mean, that's what I've always done. And it's, it's, you know, and a lot of our mentors are the same thing. They've got other things, jewelry, businesses, all sorts of things going off. And I see that, you know, a lovely story. Uh, I had this young girl who, who again, couldn't talk. We just used to message, you know, I taught you message back, but that's,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 51:21

that's, sorry, I'm just going to stop with that because that's amazing because so, I hadn't even thought of that. So you've also got a way that people who are either selectively mute or mute can communicate with you.

Dan Clark: 51:30

we can connect in whichever way is right for that young person that the main aim is to make that those first sessions as comfortable as they can be, you know, so if we're turning

Rosie Gill-Moss: 51:41

off some if they want and

Dan Clark: 51:42

yeah, yeah, so they can message in however they want, or we could talk through mum and mum could just be in the room and they could be gaming and doing that. And that's, that's, as you say, what's

Rosie Gill-Moss: 51:53

It's the freedom, isn't it, be able

Dan Clark: 51:54

amazing break But the breakthroughs of that is sometimes then that moves to say we're playing a game It's like it's really hard to just be messaging It could be chat and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Dan Clark: 52:03

the

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:03

yeah.

Dan Clark: 52:04

Or then they turn on the camera to show us something in the room and it's like we try not to look too excited

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:09

Yeah, yeah, yeah, don't

Dan Clark: 52:10

oh my god This is amazing. Um, yes,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:14

I can just, the joy and the enthusiasm that you feel for what you do for work is absolutely radiating off you through the screen. I can see how much you love it. And it's making me smile. And I think to know that there are people like you advocating out there for the young people that some of them just don't have anybody doing it for them. I just, I'm, I'm so grateful to you. And I know that so many of my listeners will be as well. Now, what, what's next? What, what happens next? World domination?

Dan Clark: 52:41

Yeah, yeah, we're just taking over, uh, basically. We're gonna smash the system and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 52:46

Slay the patriarchy.

Dan Clark: 52:47

Yeah, uh, we're growing as we can. Um, obviously we're working with trying to work with more and more local authorities and schools. But also, please know that you can self refer, you don't need to go. We work with the NHS as well now, um, which is great. We also work with young people in America, Australia, we've got mentors in Japan, Spain, it's, it's a worldwide thing. Um, and, you know, we just, You know, this, this works, you know, and now we've got a few years down and we know it works and we've got young people who are becoming very rounded adults, a lot more grounded. We've, we've now got set up a MindJam Futures team, which is basically helping the next steps, you know, where

Rosie Gill-Moss: 53:33

I saw this, this is sort of helping children find careers and, and,

Dan Clark: 53:38

yeah. So basically, yeah, so it can be all sorts. So it could be finding appropriate courses. So basically their mentor or the parents can go to our futures team then discuss sort of, you know, they won't ever be able to be in school, but they want to be a data programmer or, you know, whatever

Rosie Gill-Moss: 53:56

do do that,

Dan Clark: 53:57

we do that? What can we do? And we break down and look into that. We do offer, we work with, I don't know if you've heard of Asdan Awards.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:04

No, I haven't, what's that?

Dan Clark: 54:05

don't know, they're lovely, like more based on life skills, but you can get certifications, they work towards UCAS points, uh, so we now can offer ASDAN courses, and they can be in all sorts, from animal care through to anything, but they're lovely, um, they're a lot more based, yeah, and we, Uh, we're actually writing a course for them, a Mindjam course, um, which will be more based on anything from gaming skills and teamwork, uh, to Minecraft builds, to all the way through to game design, if that's what they're interested in, or music production, or, you know, and, and, like I say, it's all about what I, going back to, I know we're going on tangents, but my

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:43

That's my favourite, that's my favourite.

Dan Clark: 54:45

Yeah, my daughter getting to college, we had to brainstorm because she wasn't going to get GCSEs. You know, she wasn't well enough to have GCSEs. She was in complete, um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 54:54

Burnout.

Dan Clark: 54:55

breakdown and, um, but we found it, we talked with the college, found this game art course that she really wanted to do and said, you know, what, this is where we are, this is our minimum, what could we do? And luckily it was a couple of functional skills and the English GCSE we had to get so we did them We actually used one of the Mindjam Mentors, Perry. She's still with Layla now. She helped Layla get through these. We've got an English tutor as well and

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:22

to do that yourself, no.

Dan Clark: 55:24

No Yeah, I can't

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:27

teach any of my kids to swim.

Dan Clark: 55:28

Yeah, I can't do it to my kids. They don't want to learn anything from me. They just want to play. But because Layla had a point, she knew why she was doing it. It gave her a bit more of And then, and it has worked, and she's got to college. But you know, it might not always work. These courses might not be right. We help others, and they start a course, but it's not quite right. The tutor's not right. Um, we're very careful in MindJam that we don't want to be seen as education. want to be seen as, We don't want to be uncool to the kids.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 55:57

Yeah. Yeah,

Dan Clark: 55:57

don't want it. We don't want to answer to Ofsted and DFE. We don't, you know, we, we very much float our own boat,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:03

I like

Dan Clark: 56:04

want, we want to be able to lead on to the right things and also preparing for adulthood as well. It's a big thing, um, you know, so we want to support more with that. So there are things we're developing, building, send support sides as well. You know, there's so many areas we can get involved

Rosie Gill-Moss: 56:20

just giving, showing kids. So my, my, I call him my live husband, which is a bit poor taste if you're not in the dark, humid club of widowhood. But my, so my live husband, he, um, he is in, was in tech. He's actually retired and he, um, he has no formal education. And. Even now, it's that, you know, you must go the GCSE, the A levels, the university. And actually, I, myself, I, sounds not dissimilar to your daughter, actually. I suffer what I now know is a massive autistic burnout after my GCSEs. And, um, the school thought I was, um, either taking drugs or just, you know, Not, just not interact. So they said to my parents, it's probably best if she doesn't do her A levels. So I went and worked in Pizza Hut. One of the best jobs of my life. I had a bum bag that was filled with tips. Oh, I made a fortune. But I then was able to access university, not even through an access course. They, um, It was a new university, and I can't remember the exact process, but because I had worked, I was 21, and because I had worked for long enough to show national insurance contributions, only my own income was looked at, not my parents, so it was funded, and I had to write like an essay, and I went and studied journalism at university. Now, it's again, I found a loophole and I wheedled my way through it, but that's, I imagine what your guys can do, you can go, right, actually there's another way of doing this.

Dan Clark: 57:39

there's different ways again I mean I think we all get it. Why they put so much pressure on the GCC age, you need to know

Rosie Gill-Moss: 57:47

as well

Dan Clark: 57:48

what this is, it's the worst age for that. And it's, it makes no sense. And then, you know, I think a lot of us, you know, Who changes career like halfway through and suddenly decides to study something and when you want to do it, it's fascinating and you really love it, don't

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:02

books behind me and the books by my bed, you know, I do read fiction still a lot, but I'm, you know, I'm interviewing a woman about she's, um, uh, bleeding specialties in menopause. I'm interested in it. So I am reading and posting it. But it's, if you said to me, right, you've got to go and read this book on English literature, I'd be like, Oh no. And it would become a demand and I wouldn't want to do it. And I guess so much of that is finding what you love, but

Dan Clark: 58:22

yeah

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:23

what options are available is a really fundamental part of that.

Dan Clark: 58:26

yeah. and going through gaming again, another benefit is people find out what they love through gaming. It's not necessarily gaming. Uh, uh, another young person I work with is now wanted to train to be a blacksmith because he

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:39

Oh,

Dan Clark: 58:40

weapons and things and then loves films. So, so looking to get, you know, job working on

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:45

film sets and things.

Dan Clark: 58:47

Yeah. Um,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:48

Hector was playing one where he was cleaning the house or jet washing. I was like, dude, we have a jet wash and a garden. Would you like to just

Dan Clark: 58:54

it

Rosie Gill-Moss: 58:54

There

Dan Clark: 58:56

Sounds like the most boring game. It's the best game in the world. It's the biggest chiller. If you ever need a game just to chill out, play that. The good thing is you don't get the mess on your truck, you know,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:05

Yeah,

Dan Clark: 59:05

up, you know,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:05

yeah Hector would make a mess. Yes. I'm not giving Hector a jet wash. Oh,

Dan Clark: 59:11

lot of, yeah, a lot do that. Like that, that game in particular, you're setting up your own business. You're, you're jet washing your van ready

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:17

So you are

Dan Clark: 59:18

start work

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:19

involved. Yeah.

Dan Clark: 59:21

there's loads of things in there. Um, Uh, because I think everybody games in a certain way, and a lot of parents I talk to say, I don't game, so I don't understand it, yet then they're on Candy Crush level 3000 on the phone, or something like, you know, everything's a game, but even things like Instagram, Facebook, and, you know, getting likes, getting, you know, posting up things, everything's got that little game to it, which is really interesting.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 59:45

I a game in the car. I make words out of number plates. I've done it since I was a small child and, um, not, not when I'm, you know, concentrating and driving, but if you're stuck in traffic and, um, all the excitement, if I get a four letter word off a number plate, that never goes away. And I suppose I've gamified being sat in a car, haven't I?

Dan Clark: 1:00:01

Exactly, exactly. It just makes sense for me, you know, human nature is about, we like to have fun, we like to play and sort of this thing that when we get older we shouldn't play anymore is, is, is really daft because no wonder, you know, a lot of us struggle with our mental health and things when we're not giving ourselves the time to play. Um, so do, if you don't play games, you know, whatever works for you, it might be brain training or, or, you know, what. Doing a Stoku or be learning about Minecraft and Fortnite, who knows? Um, but, but do it and look at what your young person's doing actually

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:32

I'd be interested in what they're doing as well

Dan Clark: 1:00:35

of God, because you won't believe the speed they can build or the

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:39

Oh, yeah.

Dan Clark: 1:00:40

or things like that. But there's a lovely quote I love. Uh, George Bernard Shuri says, we don't stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stopped playing to there.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:00:50

That is a really good question. And it's one of those things that applies to so much. I was, you know, watching my daughter gallop. You know, she runs everywhere. And I'm thinking, when do you stop running for pleasure? When does it become hard work? And I guess it's like anything. If you don't stop, it continues to be fun. But as soon as you sort of,

Dan Clark: 1:01:06

Yeah.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:01:07

need to stop using that muscle, that part of your body. And I'm, you know, I'm 43 and, and, you know, I've, sometimes I forget to just have a bit of fun with my kids and I took the boys, I, we've got four kids. So I just took the boys up to, um, actually to Tattleshall Lakes. You'll know it. Yeah.

Dan Clark: 1:01:23

see. Yep. Yep.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:01:24

Cause I used to go up there as a kid with, because my uncle and aunt used to work there and, you know, we were paddle boarding and, you know, just, you know, having fun and the benefit of that because you do, you do get bogged down in, you know, being an adult and it's quite boring being an adult the time, isn't it?

Dan Clark: 1:01:39

Yeah. So it's good to have the silliness and the fun. And that's, know, that's another thing I wanted to bring in with Mindjump, especially because I always saw at school how not fun it is. Yeah. We've got kids who want to play and you're not allowed fun. You know, the first years are like, Oh, this is brilliant. They're, they're, they love going into school play. Most of them,

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:01:57

And then suddenly it's sit at a desk, look at board.

Dan Clark: 1:01:59

Yeah, you can't go to the toilet. You can't. It's like, honestly, it's like, you know, no wonder. And then, and then if they follow that through, then they get a job that's the same. And

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:02:09

Which is sitting at a desk, yeah, when you get a break at lunchtime, and yeah, it is, we've almost allowed ourselves to kind of become battery hens, haven't we, and follow through this, this, this, this, um, almost factory system. Oh, Dan, it's been really, really lovely to talk to you. I really like you, I think you're great, and I love what you're doing. Um, and I was thinking, just as we were talking then, um, about careers, options, and things, and obviously we have a studio here, it's, it's, um, it's a full set up studio, so if we can ever help you in any way, podcast wise, if you ever wanted to. If you want us to do anything like that, please let us know because we would love to support you guys in any way because as, you know, as I say, we, we are big fans.

Dan Clark: 1:02:47

That's brilliant. No, no, thank you. And, no, it's been an absolute pleasure being on. I love, as you can tell, I love chatting about this

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:02:53

Yeah, but it doesn't feel like work, does it? Because you're talking about what you love and this is it. It's

Dan Clark: 1:02:58

yeah. And it still amazes me, yeah, freedom, it amazes me how many people don't realise the benefits of, to gaming and utilising gaming with a

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:07

Well, like I said, I was, you know, I was looking forward to this interview, you know, I knew about Mindjam and what you've done for heck, but I found one of your, it was one of your links on a, from an interview, and it was the benefits of gaming, and it's, it just, like, spatial visualisation, it's been scientifically proved to increase plasticity of the brain, I mean, this is all stuff that I had no idea, so I'm to alleviate my mum guilt and, uh, let my boys play all evening.

Dan Clark: 1:03:30

Yeah, do it.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:32

Thank you so much, and to anybody that has been listening and wants to know more about Mindjam, you can just find me by googling Mindjam, and you can contact me if you've got any direct questions that you'd like to put down, and I'm sure he won't mind being pestered.

Dan Clark: 1:03:45

Not at all.

Rosie Gill-Moss: 1:03:46

Thank you ever so much, and to anybody that's been listening today, lots of love out there, I will be back with you soon with another episode, take care.